STTF SNG->cash thread

[K䲰䮥n]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
second hand at this table. standard?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($18.75)
Hero ($50.45)
BB ($73.45)
UTG ($15)
MP ($64.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, BB calls $2.50, UTG folds.

Flop: ($6.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4.5</font>, BB calls $4.50.

Turn: ($15.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $5.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $42.95</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone think this is ok? retarded?

[/ QUOTE ]

i like turn though i'd much rather do this vs some i have reads/stats on. you couls just check/fold the flop since that board hit villain's range pretty good and all uNLers are stations but you could go either way here i quess.

[Diamond Lie]

Alright, I know everyone is going to say the same thing for this hand, but I figured I would throw it out there to see if there is anyone who sais different. I am wondering if there is ever an ok situation to fold bottom set.

<font color="red">Live 1/2 NL. I have $300 behind me.

Effective stacks of villains in hands are:
CO: $450
UTG+1: $600. </font>

PF: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

<font color="blue"> I open limp UTG. UTG+1 makes it 12. CO calls. I call as well. </font>

<font color="red">Pot: $39 </font>
Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="blue"> I donk into the preflop raiser for 25. He pauses, raising to 75. The CO pseudo looks concerned, and doesn't really look displeased in raising it to 175. </font>

At this point its back to me. There is $315 in the pot, and I have about $250 left. I am pretty sure one of the players has a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I find it really hard to put the CO on a hand like JJ since he flat calls PF. It really feels like I'm up against Nut flush draw and top Set. I obviously insta-pushed, but I was pretty sure I was drawing pretty thin here.

Anyone ever fold with this kind of action in front? I know, we have a set. But seriously, if we take the time to think about this innocent flop, what are they going crazy about on this board besides hands I listed?

[Josem]

D,

You have a set, while playing live, when there is a flush draw on the board and raisers.

Do some EV calcs on villains possible ranges, and I imagine that it will still be correct to push. Overpairs, Jx, flush draws, are all in the range of your opponents. You lose to precisely six combinations of JJ and 77, and destroy a heap of others.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I know everyone is going to say the same thing for this hand, but I figured I would throw it out there to see if there is anyone who sais different. I am wondering if there is ever an ok situation to fold bottom set.

<font color="red">Live 1/2 NL. I have $300 behind me.

Effective stacks of villains in hands are:
CO: $450
UTG+1: $600. </font>

PF: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

<font color="blue"> I open limp UTG. UTG+1 makes it 12. CO calls. I call as well. </font>

<font color="red">Pot: $39 </font>
Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="blue"> I donk into the preflop raiser for 25. He pauses, raising to 75. The CO pseudo looks concerned, and doesn't really look displeased in raising it to 175. </font>

At this point its back to me. There is $315 in the pot, and I have about $250 left. I am pretty sure one of the players has a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I find it really hard to put the CO on a hand like JJ since he flat calls PF. It really feels like I'm up against Nut flush draw and top Set. I obviously insta-pushed, but I was pretty sure I was drawing pretty thin here.

Anyone ever fold with this kind of action in front? I know, we have a set. But seriously, if we take the time to think about this innocent flop, what are they going crazy about on this board besides hands I listed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guh... the idea of folding a set is icky, but you've definitely got one that's worth thinking about. Live 1/2NL players don't really bluff, like, ever. OTOH, they do over-defend their preflop raises, and they love play overpairs by slowplaying preflop and overplaying postflop. My guess on their hand ranges are something like...

UTG+1: {JJ-AA,AsKs,AsQs,KsQs}
CO: {77,JJ-AA}

and you're almost 50% against that range.

EDIT: You're still 44% if I pull AA completely out of CO's range, which should account for him re-raising QQ-AA preflop sometimes.

[Diamond Lie]

Solid points Josem. The way the money was being put into the pot so quickly by both opponents it made me hesistate for like 5 seconds. I thought about it after they flipped their hands over that it was a realistic probability.

I'm just wondering if there is ever a scenario you can fold out bottom set. If we are like 500+ BB deep for each opponent maybe? I'm just being thick headed, but just wondering if there is ever a point stack-wise, where you might not play out bottom set?

[Josem]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just wondering if there is ever a scenario you can fold out bottom set. If we are like 500+ BB deep for each opponent maybe? I'm just being thick headed, but just wondering if there is ever a point stack-wise, where you might not play out bottom set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there probably are scenarios where you can fold bottom set.

However:

a) the time cost of creating such scenarios is unlikely to be compensated by hitting those scenarios very often

b) I seriously doubt that playing bottom set too hard is likely to be a serious leak of yours.

c) Unless you have good reads, on ridiculously coordinated boards with multiple opponents, you could quite safely beat low stakes poker with never folding two pair or better on the flop.

[BHokie1]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I know everyone is going to say the same thing for this hand, but I figured I would throw it out there to see if there is anyone who sais different. I am wondering if there is ever an ok situation to fold bottom set.

<font color="red">Live 1/2 NL. I have $300 behind me.

Effective stacks of villains in hands are:
CO: $450
UTG+1: $600. </font>

PF: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

<font color="blue"> I open limp UTG. UTG+1 makes it 12. CO calls. I call as well. </font>

<font color="red">Pot: $39 </font>
Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="blue"> I donk into the preflop raiser for 25. He pauses, raising to 75. The CO pseudo looks concerned, and doesn't really look displeased in raising it to 175. </font>

At this point its back to me. There is $315 in the pot, and I have about $250 left. I am pretty sure one of the players has a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I find it really hard to put the CO on a hand like JJ since he flat calls PF. It really feels like I'm up against Nut flush draw and top Set. I obviously insta-pushed, but I was pretty sure I was drawing pretty thin here.

Anyone ever fold with this kind of action in front? I know, we have a set. But seriously, if we take the time to think about this innocent flop, what are they going crazy about on this board besides hands I listed?

[/ QUOTE ]

DL - I think I can say with confidence that neither of them have AJ of spades.

UTG+1 could have a wide range of hands and might just be defending his preflop raise.

I'd have to have a really good read on CO to give him credit for a higher set, from the 1/2 games I've played I'd say these hands and more are in range AJ/KJ/QJ/JT,J7, A7, A3, K7, K3, J3.

[Diamond Lie]

True, I did not include QQ-AA in original range for CO or UTG+1 bc UTG+1 only raised to 12 pf, and CO flat calls. If they want to be tricky, and it happens sometimes, they can flat call with QQ+ of course, so its part of their range I didnt include as well.

If I put those hands in their range this is an easy shove, youre right. Its not like I'm deep stacked so it could be worse.

[Slim Pickens]

There was a Cash Poker hand where David Williams made as obvious a fold of bottom set as there ever is, but it was something like

Adam Richardson: UTG+1 raises to 600 with KsQd
David Willaims: Button calls with TsTh
Bob Bright: BB calls with Qs9h

Flop comes: AhTdJd

Bob checks
Adam bets $1200
David calls $1200
Bob raises to $6400
Adam goes allin for about $30,000
David lays it down
Bob lays it down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE22RBKTaak

[Diamond Lie]

BH - I put all those hands into his range as well. Could definetly be something weird or some garbage two pair. I just dont see him making it 175 with something like J7 or K3, and I know first PF raiser is serious business.

I just wanted to make sure its a no hesitation shove instead of a difficult one. Thanks man