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#1
08-20-2007, 12:54 AM
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bottom set somewhat general questions
this preflop/flop action was kinda stupid but I think the question can be looked at more broadly too with more "standard" preflop/ flop action
villain's loose like 35/15/5 over 400, but answer also assuming a "nitty" postflop player. hero raises to 4x with 22 in the CO, villain min 3bets otb hero calls eff stacks are deep like 250bb. More generally we call a 3bet roughly according to the 5/T rule obviously, how do we factor in a) villain if tight or plays well postflop or not and b) being oop using the 5/T rule vs in position. Ithink the obvious answer is tend to use ur judgement getting closer to 5 when oop and villain is better and vice versa but is there more to it I should know, how do we quantify these factors? flop A62 with a fd hero cks, villain bets very small like 4 into 15, hero bumps it up to almost pot, villain min 3bets, hero....? and whtas the plan with AK? w/22 if u 4bet here, what to? does anyone ever play it call now to cr the turn? How does ur line change if the flop is mono or if we lead for pot and he raised to pot or if our cr was smaller, say to like half pot? (also how does this variation effect ur line on the next street)? what do we do if we just call (or we lead the flop for pot, or he just called our cr) and the flush hits on the turn? how about if we 4bet and he calls and the flush hits on the turn and we still have a ton behind? How about if a one card straight comes out on the river and we just ck called a flush turn after planning to cr the turn if we play it that way and he bets the river almost pot (assuming we still have a decent amount behind) or if he bets very meakly on the river if we just ck called a flush turn 3 and the rivers a non 4 flush 4 or 5 (or on a more blank say T)? How important in ur mind is it if the A is of the suit or not on how u play the hand (both on the flop and/or if the flush hits on the turn)? Seems pretty significant (since it expands his range of likely better hands dramatically when the A is offsuit) if the flush hits and the pots still small on the turn (ie we lead flop and he calls or he just calls our cr or we just call his flop min 3bet to cr the turn) but not sure how I would quantify the difference exactly. Also I remember Grunch saying u could literally never cr the flop in NL and that would be better than doing it constantly and that if ur going to cr the flop u should almost always consider some other option. Just kinda curious about this for my flop line here as well, I've started cr'ing far less (awkward for me at first coming for limit it seemed so natural to cr flops regularly) and I think with good results but am just still curious when people do cr and how people decide whether to ck call the flop to cr the turn or try to bet 3bet the flop? What factors change the line you chose? Math wise if villain is never going to shove the turn flushless (do u make this assumption about many villains? If so, which? can u guess from PT stats or just assume nitty postflop play from certain general stats or observed play?) we need 5:1 to call right so we shouldnt be stacking off if he overshoves right? Even when his range is wider its not like thats always better (if we assume his range is sets and flushes if he wants to get it all in on the turn?) our equities actually worse. With AK here what kinda stats would villain have to have where u wouldnt bet fold AK to a turn raise (even a minraise?) with no redraw? if we have the redraw do u assume we need better than 4:1 implied odds to call, do we assume villains ever raise with a worse hand when doing the calculation? what weight do u give to it if so vs most types of villains (lap, lag, tag ect) ? Sometimes in these spots or with smaller stacks u can include 2 pair or maybe TPTK to the range to apply the math but they probably have to be discounted most of the times villain wants to get it all in on the turn when the pot was small after the flop (if villain just calls pre), obviously most of the time villain doesnt overshove or has plenty behind so we call a turn raise for implied odds w a set after the flush hits. So far in my NL career I havent folded a set barring a 4 card straight or flush coming out but just was thinking about this kinda situation, (set when the flush hits on the turn) and wanted some thought about this, do u ever call a large turn raise with a set after the flush hits and fold to a large river bet, throw some hand examples out where u have if possible. Also does ur action alter much when u have bottom set vs top set in many hands (in either ur flop line or play later in the hand facing a large raise/bet on the turn river after the flush hits) or if it doesnt and ur extremely extremely deep (how deep and how nitty of an opponent before u even think about maybe not wanting to just get it all in w/ bottom set? no such thing?). Also kind of counterintuitive but should we be less likely to stack off when villains range is wider also? Since, for example, if he calls in the BB in a 5 way pot do we assume his range if he bets large on the turn is now more flush combos and 66 (altho AA has no longer become a concern of course), should we be weighting his range so heavily towards flushes when people make big moves on the obvious flush board? sorry lots of questions as always, anything u feel like answering or short replies u wanna throw on any of these subjects are cool 
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#2
08-20-2007, 05:41 PM
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Re: bottom set somewhat general questions
ok lets try this succinctly (not my strong suit obviously)...
just say what u would do with AK or 22 here after this action vs this loose aggro villain then say what ud do with more normal preflop flop action vs a decent tag or solid lag or lap or nit ie by normal preflop action I mean they made a standard size 3bet (u called becuz u were deep enough for the 5/T rule) then made an almost pot c bet if u ck'd or standard raise if u lead the flop (or what u do on the turn when the flush hits if he just called ur flop donk). mostly im interested in 1) how u chose ur flop line... are u thinking about villain or stack sizes or what (stack sizes obviously planning to get it all in I assume no matter how deep)? 2) what u do when the flush hits on the turn or if it was flopped and what u do if a one card straight comes out on the river whether theres a flush or not and 3) how deep (or short ) effective stacks would have to be before ud do somethin else with either hand... either calling with AK or trying not to get it all in with 22 either before or after a flush hits?
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#5
08-21-2007, 05:05 PM
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Re: bottom set somewhat general questions
Yikes, not sure I remember all of it, but against a loose aggro villain I'll lead the flop (call his likely raise) and check raise the turn. I'd do this with either 22 or AK and look to be AI by the river (can't remember stack sizes). A loose aggro's range is much wider than bigger sets and I usually do not lose a lot of sleep when I stack off set over set. Those situations will even out over time.
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#7
08-21-2007, 05:45 PM
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Re: bottom set somewhat general questions
Ok, after having read at least some of this:
Hero: CO Villan: BN Hero opens 22, SB min 3bets. Heads-up. Flop comes A x 2, hero checks. I wouldn't normally check-raise here for numerous reasons. I'd rather lead for about pot. One reason is Villan's likely range. He could have a strong Ace. If he does, he will almost always raise, and this will speed up getting all-in for you. When you flop a set, your goal should usually be to get all-in as quickly as possible. Another reason is it disguises your hand more than check-raising. I mean, who leads a flopped set in to the preflop agressor? Nobody, that's who. They are all going to "check to the raiser" and then check-raise. Nobody except the smart ones, that is. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The smart ones who know that the PFR is expecting us to check-raise a set. Instead we can lead the flop, let AK raise us, and then either just push or call, depending on stacks. If we call we can go for a check-raise all-in on the turn. He won't be able to get away, stacks will be too short.
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#8
08-21-2007, 05:52 PM
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Re: bottom set somewhat general questions
just read the 2nd one I know its still long but...
so 4 2 are u fine getting it all in with 22 or AK even if the flush hits on the turn vs a lag? how bout vs a good player? Is AK better to stack off with here on A62 than AA on 962? How about when the flush hits on the turn? what about better players are u still wanting to get it all in with AK? how deep before u wouldnt want to?
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#10
08-21-2007, 06:18 PM
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Re: bottom set somewhat general questions
[ QUOTE ]
just read the 2nd one I know its still long but... so 4 2 are u fine getting it all in with 22 or AK even if the flush hits on the turn vs a lag? [/ QUOTE ] If I bet the flop and get raised, I really have made it expensive for him to chase. I also have a decent redraw against a made flush and will probably be getting close to correct pot odds to call or shove the turn. If the A isn't one of the flush cards then I agree with including TP with a flush draw in his range, which makes it more imperative to get some more $$ in on the flop. [Note: All my answers will be my standard assuming I have no specific read on villain.] [ QUOTE ] how bout vs a good player? Is AK better to stack off with here on A62 than AA on 962? How about when the flush hits on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] Against a solid TAG I am not stacking off with AK without a read that he stacks off lightly. I'd probably call the flop and lead any turn with AK (Knowing where the A of the flush draw is, is somewhat important.) For 100 bbs, there I am not totally uncomfortable stacking off holding AK as TPTK hand on draw heavy boards, but dry boards is another matter. Another thought, against a sold player, I really am not looking to call an AI, I'd rather be the one shoving. Now if I hold AA and get played back on 2 streets on a drawless board then I really have to seriously consider a fold. Again, not many 3-barrel or play back against a pre-flop raiser on multiple streets with TP hands (if you find someone that does, make a note because he will be an ATM for you.) [ QUOTE ] what about better players are u still wanting to get it all in with AK? how deep before u wouldn't want to? [/ QUOTE ] For more than 100 bbs is where I start to be concerned. My post flop strategy holding AK on an A high drawless board really depends on my position and how pre-flop played out. If I 3-bet pre-flop and got called, I'd probably check the flop to give hands like KK and JJ a reason to call a turn and river bet. My default with a TP like hand is to get 2 streets of value. As for what two streets, the answer is it depends [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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