general question 1 c betting

[jstill]

when should we not c bet?

I pretty much do everytime no matter what, but I remember seeing Gehrig write something about using pokerstove to figure out when to c bet or not in NL (specifically talking about when ur 3bet is called). How does this work exactly?

when should we not c bet either in a HU or 3 way pot where u raised or where u 3bet?

Secondly, I wasnt refering to hands where we ck to make villains range wider that puts in money (aka we're not c betting with the intention of calling villains bet later in the hand). So my first question is when do we not c bet and give up on the hand.

And my second is when should we ck intending to continue with the hand later. Does this ever come into play in a 3 way pot?

Ive started to ck behind QQ on Axy boards and things like that HU and it seems to work out well so far, but I feel like its only a good play in a vacuum (and is this better used in 3 bet pots or once raised pots?).

Against decent players who we play often ck'ing in these spots will give a ton of information in future hands everytime we do it wont it? Theres no shania here at all I'm literally only cking when I'm intending not to fold if he bets the turn. If i have air or something I dont want to showdown or call a turn bet with if I ck I always bet right, so wheres the balance? Seems like a lot of even good NL players have no shania satisfication in this line whatsoever, so eventually doesnt it become very easy to play against that line for villain if not perfectly? Does it still make them make more mistakes (or us fewer) cking in those spots than c betting?

[inferno]

I was struggling with this problem also and this is basically what Surf told me:
We want to bet flops (assuming we have nothing, which is usually) where we can represent what is on the board. If we raise utg and the flop is 567 2flush, we can't represent very much and will often wish to check-fold, whereas if we raised and were HU with one of the blinds and the flop was AKK we would want to bet nearly always.

[linuxrocks]

Along with above advice that "you should try to rep some thing", it depends on the opponents. Some opponents are habitual c-bet callers or raisers and if you check turn, will fire and put you in bad spot. OOP, it's always tough. Against such opponents, check-raise some times with and with out goods. This is especially true in 6-max games, where c-bets are raised very lightly. In FR, things are much saner.

[tagWAG]

There are definitely some h/u situations where although c-betting is profitable, checking (especially with position) is more profitable. Check out the post below by soah, and somewhere in it you will find a link to an interesting old archives post which discusses the idea of auto-checking the flop as the pre flop raiser.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

No limit is a game of trying to induce big mistakes from your opponents, and against certain opponents on certain boards, they will make bigger mistakes v a check than a c-bet.

Position matters so much more in nl, and if you c-bet in position every time it is +EV to do so, you are probably missing even more +EV opportunties where check > c-bet. The right mix of c-bet/ check depends heavily on the aggro levels of your opponent and his willingness to pay off if you improve.

Sometimes c-betting is -EV (horrible board v villain's preflop calling range), but that's more a math question.

[tagWAG]

Autocheck flop as Preflop Raiser discussion
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...page/0/fpart/1

[00Snitch]

I've been wondering the same thing. I can't think of a spot where I don't c-bet HU and mostly 3-way.

I've notice my flop aggression factor is over 4 (however, only a couple thousand hands), but does this mean I am c-betting too much?

Even in situations where your opponent probably has very few outs (like the QQ on Axy flop), I can't bear to give a free card in a 10 bet pot.

I can only see myself doing this when the board is drawless, and if you do, if he leads the turn, how big does that bet have to be for you to fold?

[jstill]

ur flop af could actually be even higher 4 or 5 is pretty normal I think ... Im slightly lower I think but I dont think thats optimal/ correct play

I think when u ck behind u should call any size bet (pot or whatever) if u think hes the type of player who will bet after u ck behind (otherwise theres not too much value in the flop ck unless u know u can fold if he bets the turn which I dont know how u could know?) otherwise we shouldnt be cking behind the flop then right? I would imagine most people advocating taking that line (cking behind the flop in certain situations QQ on Axy ect) are usually folding to a decent sized river bet. maybe not tho its perhaps opponent dependent but I think I would need a specific read to call two streets worth of decent sized bets from most small stakes players even though I played it meakly on the flop.

My question is though since I have no shania satisfication in this facet of my game (Im only ever cking the flop behind when I have a hand like QQ KK here) so will villain know what my line means. I feel like it gives so much information about my holding its not even funny so will he often expect me to fold to a river barrel or not?

If I play with villains long enough they should be able to catch on about this, I hvae literally no balance in this line (does anyone? even the people who ck behind monsters usually raise the turn so does anyone think villains dont know that the line ck behind flop call turn means exactly KK-JJ here or some hand with showdown value that doesnt want the pot big, or perhaps a hand that turned a draw but not really becuz most air hands would c bet the flop).

Seems so obvious, yet in my experience most villains take one stab and give up or they bet the turn/river really small when ur good and their hand has no showdown value or they have a crappier made hand. U have to play poker essentially, thankfully most of the donks out there make it pretty obvious and wont be playing poker back very well even when ur hands very easy to read in my opinion. It's great in a vacuum it is the optimal line to make villan make mistakes and put money in with a wider range of worse hands BUT I question the overall strategy and wonder if villains would catch on as I play NL more regularly and encounter the same villains repeatedly and how long before villains get good and when I feel like I ll need to call a river bet due to metagame and 3rd level thinking?

[jstill]

also inferno, u say when we raise utg and the flop is bad for a c bet very coordinated we cant rep it or whatever u say we ll wish to ck fold. But do u ever do this in a HU or 3 way pot that wasnt 3bet preflop?

Is villain correct to call any pair, or cr/ raise air on this board everytime vs our range? alot of our range is still fds, sets and overpairs right so we can rep plenty even on 765 and alot of villains calling range (whether in or out of the blinds) will fold to a cbet still wont it? underpairs will fold and his range is weighted slightly against overpairs since some 3bet pre and looseish players will have alot of unimproved high cards correct?

[inferno]

[ QUOTE ]
also inferno, u say when we raise utg and the flop is bad for a c bet very coordinated we cant rep it or whatever u say we ll wish to ck fold. But do u ever do this in a HU or 3 way pot that wasnt 3bet preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

In NL yes obviously, in LHE never. Getting c/red in NL or even called is just allot worse

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive started to ck behind QQ on Axy boards and things like that HU and it seems to work out well so far, but I feel like its only a good play in a vacuum (and is this better used in 3 bet pots or once raised pots?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you playing full ring or 6-max?

Auto-checking QQ on an A-high flop has to be bad. I say has to be because I don't KNOW, but surely it's got to be bad.

You have to put your opponents on a range. If they're a nit, or super-passive yet like to see every flop with A-rag then I could see where you want to do that.

But an A-high flop is not the terror it is in limit. Even with people calling raises. Suited connectors and pocket pairs are much more a part of play than the broadways AJ+ that this has to be a bad idea.

I would bet out, but play carefully if I get a caller. I'd do pot control on the turn, probably checking behind (if possible) and call a half-pot or less bet on the river.