TAG vs LAG

[Scarmiglio]

Be gentle as this is my first theory/question/discussion post. I know a lot of this has been discussed before in different places, but I thought I'd add my numbers and $.02 to it.

I was discussing playing styles and win/loss records with Frond and it really got me thinking.

Background - Both Frond and I have been taking the game seriously since about the first of the year. We both play in LA. Frond plays mostly at HG, and I play 50/50 HG & Commerce. Frond plays a solid TAG game - pretty close to SSHE tight game standards by the book, probably 17% VPIP. I'm more LAGGY - My VPIP is 22% - 25%. I play SSHE loose game standards and then some.

Frond is a winning player. I don't know his BB/hour, but I would guess it's around 1bb/hour. I'm a winning player over the past 420 hours at 1.35bb/hour at 4/8.

What I found interesting was the difference that a 17% vs 22% VPIP made in Variance. (Frond - feel free to correct any of my numbers and/or assumptions)

Frond typically wins around 10bb when he wins, and loses 5bb when he loses playing mostly 4 hour sessions.

I typically win 25-50bb during a winning session and rarely lose less than 25bb during a losing session. I win in roughly 2 out of 3 sessions. (Some of my losing sessions represent my biggest leak. I could improve my overall winrate a lot if I would leave the game when I'm stuck, tired, and tilting. I hate to leave the game when I'm down.)

Frond rarely has a big win. He says that he's comfortable with the slow and steady wins and the lower variance, but is looking forward to getting hit by the deck one of these days.

I feed off of big wins. I'm happy if I finish up a rack, but don't really feel like I had a good session until I win 3+. By the same token, If I lose 2+ racks I'm never happy about it, but it doesn't get me upset.

Question #1 - Would you even consider 22-25% VPIP to be a LAG? Or am I only Slightly LAGgy

Question #2 - Are these numbers pretty typical? Do other TAGs out there have mostly small wins and smaller losses? Do other loose players have similar results to mine?

Question #3 - I can see a lot of room for improvement in my game, and yet still have a good winrate this year - Is it more profitable to play a LAG game or am I just running really well?

Question #4 - Will Frond realistically have a day where he gets hit by the deck or by playing fewer hands are you limiting the luck factor too much?

FWIW - the 4/8 at HG has a half kill - this is the game that Frond plays the most. Also FWIW, my winrate between HG 4/8 kill and Comm 4/8 is about the same.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]


Question #1 - Would you even consider 22-25% VPIP to be a LAG? Or am I only Slightly LAGgy

Question #2 - Are these numbers pretty typical? Do other TAGs out there have mostly small wins and smaller losses? Do other loose players have similar results to mine?

Question #3 - I can see a lot of room for improvement in my game, and yet still have a good winrate this year - Is it more profitable to play a LAG game or am I just running really well?

Question #4 - Will Frond realistically have a day where he gets hit by the deck or by playing fewer hands are you limiting the luck factor too much?


[/ QUOTE ]

OK I can get at your LAG part because I usually play a similar style, because I feel such a style is most profitable at a lot of tables (although not all tables by any means).

1) I would guess my VPIP to be about the same range as yours. I'm not sure it qualifies as "LAG" persay (althought its really a matter of opinion)...prob more like "loose-TAG" or something.

2) I've played a little less than 40 sessions this year. My biggest wins have been about 100 BB (4 times), and my biggest loss is 30 BB (once).

3) see question #1. if you're good at postflop play i dont see any reason to play tighter. I also think playing too tight gives you more variance then you think, if youre pocket pairs keep getting cracked and you cant cushion it by taking advantage of other profitable opportunities.

4) fwiw, years ago I used to play a much tighter, solid style, and rarely had a win bigger than 30 BB, although I did have some big losses. then again, back in those days, my postflop play is no where near what it is now. I dont really know what a tighter style of play would do to my winrate over the long haul.

[Fnord]

We should get together sometime. I mostly play the HG 8/16.

I think when I played the old Party 3/6 full I was somewhere around ~20% VP$IP, 10-12% PFR. I considered myself semi-tight aggressive. Although I can't get away with nearly as much crap in the games I play now that I could get away with then. Raising stuff like J9s after a single terrible limper and getting it heads-up was a cash cow for a while.

I think a lot of this comes down to putting people on ranges and getting in flops when terrible players enter the pot while getting out when passive's show strength and tightening up when the better players are in there. I suspect you're a tad too wreckless and Frond is missing good spots. Don't worry about over-all numbers unless you don't think you're getting in there enough. Worry about making good decisions.

[Scarmiglio]

Fnord - we definitely should get together. I'm playing tonight and probably tomorrow too both at HG. I've taken 2 shots at 8-16, but lost both times. Almost ready to give it another go.

I strongly agree with this: [ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of this comes down to putting people on ranges and getting in flops when terrible players enter the pot while getting out when passive's show strength and tightening up when the better players are in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I'm definitely a little too wreckless sometimes!

[Fnord]

Screen shot from my numbers around the end of my time doing full ring online. I've since gotten a little looser with blind defense and calling 1 sb when the pot is 3+ way.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y24...in/last15k.png

[Xhad]

grunching

Anything less than 20% VPIP is probably losing ev for a good player though I may be wrong in a lot of live cardrooms due to rake. More than 22% and you're almost certainly just flipping coins or spewing unless a lag image makes up for it.

[Hyperrrprank]

I've been working on a flexible system lately and adopting the TAG/LAG style appropriate to the table I'm at. For instance, played some 4/8 with Frond at HG a week or so ago, and played WAY looser then my normal game. Part of that was the lower limit, but I wanted to cultivate some action when I hit my hands knowing that I could outplay most if not all of the table and get away when I was dead.

When I sit a 15/30 or 20/40 and have tough opponents, I ratched way back to a much TAGier style. Sometimes I let the inner LAG off the leash for a couple hands if I hit a rush of good cards, then rein it in just about when people start raising eyebrows to my raises.

I think the variable style, especially the inclusion of loose aggressive play in the right circumstances, really adds to the win rate. My normal sessions tend to be up between 10 and 20BB, my downs are pretty rare these days, and average half of that.

[Fnord]

In live play unless you're in a bigger game, I just don't think LAgg is viable between the rake and the epic levels of redardation from other players that you would need to match to get any attention.

I'm pretty sold that a "solid" table image is at least right for me. I show enough plays other players don't understand to build up a little mistrust and will snag a pot here and there on my image. I don't think an odd extra call here and there makes up for that.

[PorkchopDJG]

I think it actually has more to do with how the game plays than how you play

I play in a generally loose/passive 6/12 LHE game. It's the type of game where there isn't a lot of raising preflop and a lot of people limp and call. I usually book wins but they are normally modest wins like 10 Big Bets.

Now on the other hand there is a super loose/aggressive 8/16 game that has a lot or raising and capping before the flop. You can win big pots when you hit. When I've played in that game I have had large wins (2 racks) but also large losses on days when you keep missing big draws and getting big pairs cracked.

So, In summary I think the amount of variance depends more on the type of game than the way you play.
Loose Laggy games will have big variance and you will win and loose big amounts. In more passive games you will book more, but smaller wins.

[James.]

in a nutshell my style is TAG OOP and LAG in position.