Missing the Flop

[DannyOcean_]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

I decided to post this hand because it had a happy ending, but the question is a general one... Is there a general guide for play when you value bet a good hand like AQ or AJ in late position, whiff, and have multiple players? I will usually (situation dependent, but usually) c-bet with just one opponent, but with 2-3 callers, should the general strategy be to check/fold in the absence of draws? I know everything is situation-dependent, but just looking for a general philosophy or some wise words perhaps. What would you do in the hand above with no reads? Thanks

[BigBadBabar]

i usually continuation bet against 2 other people, or fewer. it also depends on the texture of the board (is it scary, paired, high cards, low cards, etc) and if i have reads on my opponents if they like to call down or whatever.

the chance of taking it down right then with a bet on the flop, when no one else hit anything, is too great an opportunity to pass up. usually with just overcards on an undercard flop like this you have odds to call one bet anyway, so you might as well be betting out, keeping the aggression going, and representing something so other nothings will fold.

[DannyOcean_]

I agree that board texture is important, I probably don't think about it enough when c-betting actually. With 1-2 opponents on a non-drawy flop, c-betting is best (generally). With a drawy flop and any more players, it's probably folding noone, and youre left in the awkward position of building a big pot with dangling overs.

Thanks, just a concept i can never seem to get quite right.

[BigBadBabar]

it's a key and tough concept to be sure. keep posting hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] sshe has some good parts about it, about playing overcards and other sections as well.

[Zeldark]

I agree with Babar. I would like to add that a lot of the "moves" in poker are best done in moderation. Some flops are better to C-Bet than others. Since a c-bet is essentially a weak semi-bluff, if you don't C-bet everytime, you buy yourself some credibility for those times that you do. "He doesn't always bet, so he might actually have something!" is probably a little better thought to put through your opponent's heads than "This jerk always bets, time to make him pay."

Though like most things in poker, it does depend. The C-Bet is definately a move you want in your arsenal. If the english is accurate enough: Get comfortable with it, but not complacent.

Edited to add:
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, just a concept i can never seem to get quite right

[/ QUOTE ]
Metagame encouragement: If all of poker were easy everyone would do it well, the net flow of money would result in all the money just going back and forth, and where's the fun/challenge/money/etc in that. All the reasons anyone played poker would probably disolve (except for perhaps fulfilling the need for social interaction).

Now then, the bet/fold, that's a concept I could use some polishing with [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[winkydinky85]

Bet all the way and call a river raise.

[OziBattler]

here is a great digested post by jrz about firing the second barrel. sure, it is about betting the turn but it is a great read and is a continuation of stuff to think about AFTER you fire that bet on the flop.

For me, there are no hard and fast rules and it all depends on so many things othat have already mentioned. Also dont forget that YOUR perceived image is important.....ive had sessions where I c-bet too much (eg if im tilty or being smacked it the face by the deck but they keep folding so dont know I was pure value betting) and of course, every stops believing me so I lose the ability to take the pot on a bluff

OZi

[seano34]

Grunch

I would probably bet this flop.

You have two good overcards. No-one has shown any aggression pre-flop. You have a backdoor flush and straight draw.

Turn onwards is fine given how you played the flop.

I guess if you had bet the flop and been raised you could call and go for a c/r on the turn also.