Why does having the initiative matter?

[mike0292]

What matters is that there exists a dynamic in poker, for better or for good, that the player with the initiative is expected to make a bet when checked to in heads up situation.

Now, if you have a real hand, and you know if you check the other player is going to bet, why would you donk? You lose money when he just folds, when you know that you can count on him to bet every time when checked to and you can inflate the pot with a raise. The only reason people donk is to [censored] with people's minds, or with the intention of 3 betting all in over a raise.

[kotkis]

It doesn't.

[VanVeen]

it doesn't, really. the only reason why it *seems* to is because people tend to raise or reraise the strongest hands they can possibly have in their range (almost 100% of the time), so when they call (and "cede" the initiative) the probability of them having those hands is reduced significantly. in the scenario you outlined the tag player does not have any strong pairs or aces because he 3bets them almost 100% of the time. the lag player, however, still has all of those hands in his range. it makes a big diff when calculating equity vs. a range.

[Jurrr]

I think it is purely psychological, but it works. People play more aggro with initiative, as they assume their opponents will give them more credit. Since they will play more aggro, you will experience more variance when playing against those with initiative, which may make some more timid without it.

[Dan BRIGHT]

I don't seem to post much really good stuff anymore ie mini-essays, but here's a tongue and cheek answer that if you think about for a while it will make the whole idea of initiative crystal:

Initiative only matters as much as it defines EACH players hand range. Consider this with the ideas of preflop raising 3 betting and 4 betting ranges,and constantly changing (aka dynamic) metagames.... Suddenly things aren't so clear - but that means you're thinking better!

[jfish]

it forces action.

[soah]

generally speaking (on all streets, not just preflop), the aggressor in a hand has a very wide range... from the nuts to pure bluffs and a lot of hands in the middle. The player who is calling generally cannot have complete garbage, and he usually doesn't have extremely strong hands. The aggressor often will want to keep betting either for value or as a bluff. The caller often has a hand which just wants to go to showdown with a little bit of action.

obviously hand values can change from one street to the next... but the majority of the time, they stay about the same. And of course, you will see people slowplay, or wait until a later street to bluff... but as a *general* guideline, the caller in a hand has a range that's weighted towards middle strength hands and the aggressor has more big hands and more bluffs in his range, and perhaps fewer hands in the middle range (depending on the circumstances).

So even if you assume that both ranges are of the same strength (just by pure equity calcs), that doesn't mean that they both have equal benefit from betting.

[cockandbull]

to me its basically the gap concept in one of the 2+2 mtt books. most of the time you need a tighter range to call a bet than you do to make it.

its a redundent(sp) idea once your playing players who play well, so its worth having in midstakes and below.

[True]

having the initiative is defined as :

the person who had the betting lead in the previous street.

I think most people are mistaking this with the person who is betting or aggression.

[Huggy]

[ QUOTE ]

Initiative only matters as much as it defines EACH players hand range. Consider this with the ideas of preflop raising 3 betting and 4 betting ranges,and constantly changing (aka dynamic) metagames.... Suddenly things aren't so clear - but that means you're thinking better!

[/ QUOTE ]

Your pf raise could be anything from SC to AA whereas a pf call is most likely a small PP, 2 high cards eg KJ (obv not AK or AQ) and maybe SC... basically u, pf raiser, can rep a stronger hand...

Im pretty sure this is right. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]