am i missing something?

[McMelchior]

I'm not very happy about a PF push.

Button limped in, which is either very weak or a trap for SB. SB showed complete and utter weakness by just completing.

There's no way button is going away for another 4.3 BB, when the pot is offering him close to 2:1 (antes?) and he's got 30+ BB behind.

You really have no reason at this point to seek out a race with 98o.

Especially in these low limit tourneys I'm never in a hurry to commit my last 4 BBs.

You just paid the big blind, so you have a whole round to catch a stronger hand - or at least get it first in - in position. And if you should pick up a real hand you're almost 100% sure to be paid off (which I think your current experience strongly emphasizes).

Finally, it really makes no difference for you whether button calls you with J7s, if SB calls you with a pair of deuces or what have you - you're attempting a raw bluff without having shown any strengh pre, before you've seen all players react to the flop, and in a micro limit donkament.

Generally that's a poor strategy.

I hope you really are posting to learn something about how other micro limit players think (if not you're no different from them).

They think: Hey, there's chips in the pot, I wanna be part of the fun!

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, I'll be the first to admit that I'm still learning, no shame in that, but ty barry [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, of course not, but that will make you remember. You should really never be making that move. Push preflop here because even if you have the worst hand and get called down by K high (very very possible), there is good overlay and FE. Welcome to the forums.

Barry

[postoakpoker]

man, that move made me look like quite a donk. I guess I thought about it and convinced myself that my analysis/thought process was correct/sound, but that's why I post hands, to correct my errors. I'm not too new to poker (sadly?) or to the forums, just haven't posted much, but I plan on posting a lot more hands (hopefully with some that make me appear...a bit less <font color="green">green</font>). McMelchior: it almost seems like every hand there are chips in the pot so i always want to be part of the fun [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not very happy about a PF push.

Button limped in, which is either very weak or a trap for SB. SB showed complete and utter weakness by just completing.

There's no way button is going away for another 4.3 BB, when the pot is offering him close to 2:1 (antes?) and he's got 30+ BB behind.

You really have no reason at this point to seek out a race with 98o.

Especially in these low limit tourneys I'm never in a hurry to commit my last 4 BBs.

You just paid the big blind, so you have a whole round to catch a stronger hand - or at least get it first in - in position. And if you should pick up a real hand you're almost 100% sure to be paid off (which I think your current experience strongly emphasizes).

Finally, it really makes no difference for you whether button calls you with J7s, if SB calls you with a pair of deuces or what have you - you're attempting a raw bluff without having shown any strengh pre, before you've seen all players react to the flop, and in a micro limit donkament.

Generally that's a poor strategy.

I hope you really are posting to learn something about how other micro limit players think (if not you're no different from them).

They think: Hey, there's chips in the pot, I wanna be part of the fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to be like this, but your analysis is all wrong. First, we do have some pretty substantial FE, especially against the button. You see, if we shove, the button is in a bit of a spot. If he just calls, he risks a shove from the SB, who is going to face a spot where he can't really flat call your raise. Sure, sometimes he could fold, but the threat of him shoving over the top is very real, since at that point the pot will be larger than his stack. Additionally, the button may not be too keen on raising to isolate with what is almost certainly a marginal/weak hand. So, a very decent % of the time, the button will fold, and sometimes the SB will call, but sometimes he completed with crap and will let it go.

Also, we have 5.3 BBs, what better spot are we waiting for? They're both coming along only very rarely, so we'll have our BB dead in the middle, one of their's, and the antes, will means that even with no FE we're shoving 4.2 ish BB to win like 7.2 which is over 1.7:1, and that's pretty compelling. Factor in FE (I'd say at least 20%) and this becomes a terrific spot for a 5 BB stack.

Finally, wouldn't it be nice to actually have some chips in case we get a real hand? I mean, if we fold here, then the next 2 hands, and then pick up AA in the CO we'll have a whopping 3.5 BBs left, and doubling up will do little more than buy us another orbit. We need to gamble to get some chips for a run at the FT, and although this spot isn't perfect, it's plenty good enough and I'd cheerfully get my chips in here.

[McMelchior]

Dunkman, don't worry, you're entitled to your oppinion [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I do (no surprise) respectfully disagree.

When the SB flat calls/completes after the button's open-limp he's pretty much incapable of having a hand.

After one player has entered the pot I really don't think we have a lot of FE here; there's some kind of stubborness that affects a micro limit player who's already entered a pot - they'll generally rather loose an arm than fold.

Of course I'd rather double from from 8BB than from 4BB, but a) we still have some first-in vig with 4BB, and b) I'd rather be around for the double up than busted [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously, on a number of occasions I have played the late phases of tournaments with way below 10BB and still made the FT. Panic pushes - after a player already has entered the pot - with dispustable FE and a guaranteed dominated hand is not in my repertoire.

[b-komplex]

i like the way you played it a lot of times they do fold the K8s here but it wasn't a bad call by him at all because obv you're doing this with a lot of things other than a jack. I think open push gets called twice and since you somehow ended up in the BB with M=2 this works for me.

[Alex_Rules]

lol wasn't a bad call. in fact LOL. that's right, I pressed the caps lock key. In what world is calling k8 here logical. Did we think to ourselves on this flop? Hm...lets check for value, induce a bluff (which is obviously not any piece of the flop at all bc a guy with a 4 BB stack would slow play any piece of the flop???), and then stack him with king high?

[Warbuff]

I'd be interested to know your prior hands before this hand in the big blind, your M is about 3 so pushing pre-flop would have been the best move.

What about some stronger hands a few rounds earlier? This of course assuming you folded some marginal hands that might actually have faired better. Ax or low pair with around 20k chips might have given you some better stealing chances and won a show down or two. I'd rather take risks a little earlier while my stack can take a bigger bite out of an opponent and give you more breathing room then pushing in a situation where your covered better then 3 to 1 by everyone at the table a few rounds later. I'd only consider the later if there was a huge prize money difference to be had by finishing a few places higher...

[postoakpoker]

I got crippled when I tangled with another big stack. I raised w/ KK, he 3bet my initial raise w/ AJ, I shoved, he called, I laughed, then yelled. I definitely like to try and make some moves to avoid getting this short. I hate not having FE [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]