NL - unimproved middling overpairs (best line in theory)

[PantsOnFire]

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Pants, it applies here does it not....A) when I have the best hand and I want to get one bet out of an inferior hand by allowing him to bluff into me.

In the situation described a PP is still likely to be the best hand unless villains raising range is really, really tight. You therefore c/r to trap his c-bet. If he calls or pushes then its clear you were not ahead on that occasion but I don't think it makes the play -EV.

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Perhaps. But I feel this is a way ahead/way behind situation. And in those situations, it is generally better to keep the pot under control. He may very well call a c/r with overcards and if one hits on the turn, you are in a bad spot.

I'm with Doyle Brunson on this one. I think c/r is overused and expensive in the long term.

[Mook]

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Perhaps. But I feel this is a way ahead/way behind situation. And in those situations, it is generally better to keep the pot under control. He may very well call a c/r with overcards and if one hits on the turn, you are in a bad spot.

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But honestly, I'm not all that concerned what hits on the turn. If he calls my C/R, most of the time I'm done with the hand. I'm check-raising because when he has anything less than an overpair - i.e. the vast majority of the time - my C/R will often take down the pot, including his continuation bet.

Pot control is only important when you intend to see a showdown, and an unimproved middle pair isn't usually the kind of hand I want to do that with ... especially out of position and flying blind against a PF raise.

Mook

[Jack plyr]

First off, this is a great question posed by Acevader. Having said that, I am going to ignore it for the moment to focus on the issue of bluff check raising continuation bets. As Pokerfarian mentioned, a check raise will turn a hand like 88 into a bluff. He also correctly notes that turning it into a bluff might be the best option.

Given the flop texture and villain’s hand range, he likely has no draw and no hand unless he started with a large pocket pair. He might bluff back at you if he views this flop as unlikely to have hit your range, but in the live games I play, most players won’t bluff you back and they don’t draw to 6 questionable outs.

What makes the check raise attractive is that villains are continuation betting flops that are extremely unlikely to hit their hand range. You must make players pay if they consistently c-bet without regard to board texture and can only represent an overpair or a 6 outer. Obviously, the viability of a check raise bluff depends on hand ranges, continuation bet percentage, and images.

Hand Range: Tighter the villain the more likely he will have a big pocket pair which makes it less likely he will fold to your check raise. This is somewhat counteracted because tighter players tend not to play back at you with air. Looser players might end up calling with a draw but are less likely to have a made hand. They are also more likely to play back at you.

Image: I will also check raise with my big hands and I am generally viewed as a tight player. Both these factors make my bluff more believable.

Continuation bet percentage: The higher the continuation bet percentage the less likely villain has a hand on a given continuation bet. If he sometimes checks behind on dry flops, then it might not be profitable to check raise bluff. Usually his preflop raise percentage considered along with his continuation bet percentage can give you a great idea if he is betting with air.

Now back to Acevader’s question. In many situations I do think it is best to turn your 88 into a bluff. Why?
I am unlikely to get paid off by weaker hands anyway so no big loss there.
Villain likely has overcards that I don’t want to draw against me.
Bluffing exploits a current game weakness that some players always c-bet
You can change your bluff into pot management if he checks behind. Then use the showdown value of 88 to your benefit.
It works well with my overall approach. I will check raise my sets sometimes.

It is important for me to reiterate that the check raise depends critically on how often the opponent is continuation betting. The higher that percentage the better the value of the check raise.

I could give you my thoughts on how to play the hand but you can basically rationalize any line based on hand ranges, continuation bet percentages, floating percentage, etc. I would recommend that you develop a simple excel model and play around with the numbers to reflect different player types and bet sizes.

Keith

[Acevader]

^^^ Very good post - like it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[JayMay]

Personally, I agree with Mook.

If you assume you are behind after a flop where you have an overpair, you're going to have a real hard time making money IMO. A 3.5 raise from the average player preflop could be anything from 78s to AA in my experience.

And on a board that pairs low or has a low straight draw on it, the CR is going to get a fold from most anyone who does not have you beat. Remember, you JUST CALLED pre-flop, and depending on position and how many limpers there were you could have been calling with almost anything.

If you're scared CR-ing will be too expensive, then make a pot sized bet on the flop.

Just my .02

[NANONUTS]

Check raise is by far the best option. If you flat call the villain is not gonna put anymore money in the pot unless he improves or a scare card comes that he can use to take you off your hand. He also has the option of firing a second barrel to represent an overpair and can take you off the hand this way too. If you cr and he calls 90% of the time you are beat and you are out cheap.
I mix it up between leading and check raising in these kind of spots. If the villain flat calls a small leading bet on the flop he very likely has overcards and 80% of the time he'll fold to a decent size follow-up bet on the turn.
As jack_plyr says it's all about the villains preflop raising frequency. If he's raising alot remember he has nothing most of the time so don't let yourself be pushed around.