High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews

[DrNo888]

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PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.


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wait, after looking at the ron siegel wiki i realized he was the awesome chef who won the lobster battle on iron chef. that guy ruled. i will be making reservations for the ritz as soon as i find someone to go with.

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I'd go with you, but dont think my wife will like that very much. She would love this place base on El D's review.

ElD,

How long in advance do I need to reserve for the Ritz Carlton?

[MrMon]

Without reviewing a specific restaurant, I'll get to that later, I look at high-end restaurants in a similar way to Zagat, but for the really-high end, there's a slight twist.

In order to receive a high score, a restaurant must succeed in three areas, Food, Service, and Atmosphere. Of these, by far the most important is Food. Without Food, you can't succeed, and nothing you do in the other two will ever make up for substandard Food. But good Food with substandard Service or Atmosphere can still work, just not a top score.

What I expect from Food is something that works, but also something I can't do myself. As good as they can be, a steakhouse is never going to make it to the top of my list, simply because they can't exceed what I can do on my own to a high enough degree that I can justify paying top dollar prices. I want originality, or fantastic technique of classics, something that says the chef knows what he's doing, that he understands not only food, but his audience as well. Wine should match the food, and not just by spending top dollar, but by really digging through the wine cellar for something that matches what the chef is trying to accomplish. There's also the value factor, I should not just be eating money, I've got to feel like I'm getting my money's worth, not ripped off.

Service and Atmosphere are tricky, and are generally only negatives, but if the food is right, they will add to a meal substantially. Great food, but annoying Service will definitely dip my rating of a place, and something annoying about the Atmosphere, like too much noise, loud music, tables too close together, etc. will as well. Of the two, I think Service is much more important for a couple of reasons. Good service can save a meal, either by preventing you from making a mistake, like with wine, or enhancing it, by getting you what you want or providing a wine you never would have thought of on your own. Most aspects of service you shouldn't have to ask for, it simply happens, but they should be prepared if you ask to provide most reasonable requests. And for the absolute best service, they should be practically invisible. Things should happen like magic, you don't even know they happened, they just did.

Now, many restaurants can pull off one of these things, they can make one part of the meal spectacularly well. A local watering hole can have a spectacular hamburger or drink or dessert that you love, but it's never going be high end. That's okay, not everything has to be high end, and finding a place that can do something well is a great experience. A truly spectacular restaurant must do ALL three things well, and they must do them like a symphony orchestra. Everything must work together, not in opposition, that's the twist. The courses must flow together, not jar from one taste to another, the wines must match, the serving must be well timed, courses must be paced, reasonable requests must not throw them for a loop. It's not an easy thing to pull off, and it takes so many people, many invisible, that it's not surprising that it can be so expensive. If you figure what a top restaurant is making on you per hour you're there gross, not profit, and divide by the staff that it takes to make that happen, it's actually a bargain compared to other forms of entertainment.

There's one final factor that the restaurant can't control, a sort of X factor, and you sort of have to discount it. The best meals often have something happen at them that just make them memorable, make them special, that all depend on you. And it doesn't have to happen in the best places, and usually won't. Perhaps a restaurant is a new discovery, you just happened to stumble onto it with no or low expectations. Or someone says something memorable or you try a dish you'd never tried before, or you're celebrating something special. It's the unexpected factor that just burns a place into your brain in a positive way that can never be repeated that will make the most memorable meals. No restaurant can control that, but some do their best to make it happen.

[El Diablo]

Dr: You can get reservations for the Dining Room with relatively little notice if you are willing to eat early (5:30 or 6) or late (9pm or later).

cit: Wow, that sounds amazing.

All: Hopefully someone has been here: http://www.elbulli.com/ to give us a personal perspective. Tons of reviews and articles about it online, though. Here's one: http://chocolateandzucchini.com/arch...t_el_bulli.php

[Dids]

Diablo,

I'm not sure it fits into the price range, but have you had that dinner at Elemental yet?

[Pudge714]

firstyearclay,
n9ne is very good. However if you think it's food is a 10 you have not been to a 10 restaurant. I went this summer and it was good, however the steak was clearly a second tier steak. By saying second tier it isn't in my pantheon of steaks it sounds like an insult, but I am a steak snob.

Also from my very limited dining experience in Vegas.
Picasso > n9ne > Prime

Speaking of steak, tonight I'm going to Harbour 60 in Toronto which is in my opinion the best steak I have ever had. It is an incredible restuarant, great food, great value and great service.

Here is the menu note there is sound so turn it off before you open it http://www.harboursixty.com/ I have been about half a dozen times and have probably seen almost everything on their dinner menu, except some of the fish and non-steaks. I also don't eat shellfish because I'm kosher, but I hear good things. The problem with the lamb, veal, etc. is that the steak is so good I can never talk myself out of ordering it.

Also El Diablo mentioned Nobu earlier. During the PCA I went twice during the week is was very good, although again since I don't eat shellfish my dining experience was definitely not optimal.

Speaking of service at the PCA I went out to dinner a couple times with a group of like 20 2p2ers. We went to one restuarant which was good, but not particularly high scale, while there the manager refused to let us all sit together because it was restaurant policy that groups of X would need to be split up. The restaurant was fairly empty and we were in a side room all by ourselves and they refused to let us sit together despite us talking to the manager being very accommodating etc. etc.

Later in the week we went to a more upscale place in the resort. All the servers were very friendly and accommodating and nice even though half of us had been drinking since that afternoon. By the time the meal was over the restaurant was empty and the waiters didn't act snobby or dickish because he were playing credit card roulette and acting like idiots they remained just as courteous.

It seems that a good litmus test for service is how they treat younger people. I have heard lots of stories of servers acting like complete dicks to kids my age at high class restaurants, at good restaurants they won't care unless we are disrupting other individuals.

Note: This post is kind of rambly and disoriented so if some of the stuff might not make sense.

[PITTM]

El D,

What have you heard/experienced wrt Manresa in Los Gatos, also Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I will be going to both of these places fairly soon and would like to hear from someone who has been. Both are consistently top 25 in the world from what i hear.

[firstyearclay]

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firstyearclay,
n9ne is very good. However if you think it's food is a 10 you have not been to a 10 restaurant. I went this summer and it was good, however the steak was clearly a second tier steak. By saying second tier it isn't in my pantheon of steaks it sounds like an insult, but I am a steak snob.

Also from my very limited dining experience in Vegas.
Picasso > n9ne > Prime



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Pudge714,

I agree that their is BETTER steak houses in the city of Las Vegas. In terms of overall food experience, N9ne was great, but that was because of the personal service given to me. I have been to some great steakhouses (non-chain) in North America. 2 of the more famous ones are Bern's Steak House in Tampa, and Barberian's in Toronto, ON.

I have not been to H60 yet. I have heard great things from the locals though. I was in town twice last year and was turned down for showing up too late (11:00pm for dinner without a reservation).

IMO, Bern's is the pinnacle of all dining experiences and steak. I would challenge their meat to any steak house in the world.

In terms of chains, I also prefer Morton's over Ruth Chris.

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FYC

[Dids]

Short reviews of nicer places I've been:

Craftsteak in Vegas:

Went with like 12 2p2ers. It's hard to gauge server in this atmosphere, because we were something of a nuisance (late, drunk, Josh P. yelling "JASON T IS A [censored]" really loud). We'd also ordered ahead (actually GuyOnTilt had)Given how we were, I thought they were pretty damn nice to us.

The food was excellent. The steak was great, the aps were solid and I really enjoy the desert selection (some non-standard sorbets IIRC).

El Gaucho in Seattle:

Great service (for my part, I know Entity had some issues with the fact that they didn't boot an obviously drunk and annoying guy faster).

The steak was solid (although I've since taken a position that no steak (making an exception for Kobe beef, which I've only had once and can't really judge) is that much better than what I can make on my own as to be worth the steakhouse prices. They have some pretty standard steakhouse sides that were good, if not mind blowing.

There was a fruit, nut and cheese course before dessert that I really enjoyed. The cheese selection was pretty standard, but it was all delicious.

They do table side prep for both their caeser and their banana's foster. I had the apple pie, upon which they added some of the sauce from the BF, and it was excellent.

The Metropolitian Grill in Seattle.

Big overpriced steakhouse. The steak was good, the sides were very uninspired. Service was ok, but again it's hard to judge because as detailed in another thread, we were pretty lousy customers. Despite costing a good deal more, not close to El Gaucho in terms of quality.

Cafe Juanita in Kirkland.

Very good. French food, but not so french that you were really aware of it. A much better return on your dollar than any of the steakhouses. I've typed up a longer review somewhere that I'll try and dig up.

[El Diablo]

PITTM,

I haven't been to Manresa but have heard it is fantastic. I've been to Chez Panisse a couple of times. It is very good, but I think it is overrated. I mean, you get incredible, fresh, seasonal stuff prepared very well. Alice Waters pioneered a lot of what is now standard at a lot of "California Cuisine" places and really blazed the trail for tons of high-end places here to make this sort of simple, fresh food with local, seasonal products (doing this at a time when fine dining pretty much meant heavy sauce, super-rich, French style cuisine). But I just don't find much here to be all that innovative, just a lot of very well executed relatively basic stuff.

I mean, look at the menu: http://www.chezpanisse.com/pgdownmenu.html

Everything on there is gonna be delicious. But there's nothing on that list that makes me say, wow, that sounds like something really incredible and different I must try that!

Don't get me wrong, it is very good. I just don't think that you get the sort of sublime dining experience that you get at many of the restaurants it gets compared to.

[El Diablo]

JA Sucker post I've moved here

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High-end Dining Pisses Me Off

A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off. I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places. I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen. The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own. Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

Feel free to agree or disagree here. This thread should be a liberation of sorts for all people who like food, but hate the attitude that goes along with it.
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