Calling with poor hands in the blinds (especially BB)

zeroworker · #1 10-23-2007, 01:04 PM

Here is something I wrestle with a lot, and want to get some expert opinion on. I often find myself in the SB or BB with a poor hand, but with the pot offering good odds, and not really knowing what to do.

For example, I might have 9,6 s in the SB and there have been 2 limpers so far. In this case the pot is offering me 7 to 1 odds. Should I call? Or another scenario - I'm in the BB looking at a min raiser from MP and a call from the button, so the pot is offering 5 to 1 for a call, but my hand is a measly 5,4 o.

Here's my current approach - early in a tournament I'll take the odds and invest a few chips and see what happens. Later in a tournament, when the blinds increase, and especially if I have a medium to short stack, I usually fold and try to conserve my chips for all-in moves with cards that aren't so weak. In reality I'm just winging it, and I feel this is one place where I need to improve.

When I do call, these are the kinds of hands I tend to get into trouble with. To take the SB situation above as an example(I have 9,6 s), and the flop comes 3,4,9, I have top pair, but I rarely get paid off in such situations. Either someone shows me a better kicker or I end up backing off in the face of a strong betting sequence, and then I lose a lot of chips instead of a blind.

So, how good do the odds have to be before weak hands become playable? I'm a relative newbie, so post flop play is not my strong suit. I need some guidance to navigate this maze.

Zero

P.S. Some input on mediocre hands would be nice too - what kind of odds are generally required to play hands like Q,9 or A,5 in the blinds? What other conditions should I be looking for?

Nairb · #2 10-23-2007, 01:06 PM

Here's my current approach - early in a tournament I'll take the odds and invest a few chips and see what happens. Later in a tournament, when the blinds increase, and especially if I have a medium to short stack, I usually fold and try to conserve my chips for all-in moves with cards that aren't so weak.

KStV · #3 10-23-2007, 02:03 PM

I asked this exact question recently and I thought the following response (from kayaker) was really helpful:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[KStV]
A somewhat related question:

When you are holding a trash hand in the SB, what odds do you need to justify completing the blind? In the BB, what odds do you need to call a smallish raise that attracted multiple cold calls? I often find myself wondering what to do in these situations in online limpfests/call-athons.

To put a finer point on it-->

I have an M of 20 in an online tournament with no reads (9 handed). I'm looking at 94o with blinds at $50/$100. 5 limpers bring the pot to $650, so I'm getting $650:$50 or 13:1. Is that enough to justify playing this garbage OOP against 7 opponents?

Same situation, but UTG raises to $250, gets 4 callers and SB completes. I'm looking at $1600:$150 or about 10.5:1. Am I paying the cost of an orbit in hopes of hitting the stealth jackpot flop?

What are some guidelines I can start working with?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[kayaker]

It may seem like you are getting odds to call with just about anything in a muti-limped pot from the SB, but be careful. Hands like 94o, or even K4o, are going to bleed money. You have to hit something like that so hard it makes it to where it's impossible to get the odds to complete. Throw that stuff away.

There is a difference, however, in hands like 65o. With 94o, you're looking for - at a MINIMUM - two pair. And frankly, I'm not all that thrilled with two pair or trips. You have a big hand, but one that's frequently going to wind up second best (better two pair or a better kicker). 65o, on the other hand, adds in the possible straight draws. Those extra possibilities mean you're OK completing in a multi-limped pot. Personally, I still don't like playing 65o with less than 4 limpers. With 98o+/65s+ I'll go with 3 limpers. On one-gappers (75-T8), I play them like the bottom card is the higher of connectors (e.g. 75o plays like 54o and requires at least 4-5 limpers.)

The biggest thing to remember is that being out of position, you need to hit the flop HARD to keep going. Even top pair is likely to be a loser.

As for calling an UTG raise from the BB w/ 94o... umm... no. Just no. An UTG raise usually means a big hand. What are you hoping to flop here? 994? And your odds of hitting that flop (or 999, 449 or 444)? Far too low to make playing it worthwhile. Frankly, I throw away everything that's not big or has a reasonable chance of becoming big (suited connectors). And the "potentials" get dumped if no one else called.

Fetzi · #4 10-23-2007, 02:30 PM

Interestingly I just was convronted with this situation

( Dont think im result oriented, i will make this fold 24/7 )

Poker Stars, $4 + $0.40 NL Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds, 7 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: 10,424
BTN: 4,943
Hero (SB): 6,745
BB: 18,845
UTG: 27,299
UTG+1: 7,769
MP: 22,497

Pre-Flop: (300) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls 200, UTG+1 calls 200, 4 folds, BB checks

Flop: (700) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets 400, UTG+1 calls 400, BB folds

Turn: (1,500) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets 800, UTG+1 raises to 7,169 and is All-In, UTG folds

Results: 3,100 Pot
UTG+1 mucked and WON 3,100 (+1,700 NET)

ssnyc · #5 10-23-2007, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly I just was convronted with this situation

( Dont think im result oriented, i will make this fold 24/7 )

Poker Stars, $4 + $0.40 NL Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds, 7 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: 10,424
BTN: 4,943
Hero (SB): 6,745
BB: 18,845
UTG: 27,299
UTG+1: 7,769
MP: 22,497

Pre-Flop: (300) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls 200, UTG+1 calls 200, 4 folds, BB checks

Flop: (700) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets 400, UTG+1 calls 400, BB folds

Turn: (1,500) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets 800, UTG+1 raises to 7,169 and is All-In, UTG folds

Results: 3,100 Pot
UTG+1 mucked and WON 3,100 (+1,700 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think here you are deep enough to call with the 5 9 sooted

SharkTank43 · #6 10-23-2007, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly I just was convronted with this situation

( Dont think im result oriented, i will make this fold 24/7 )

Poker Stars, $4 + $0.40 NL Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds, 7 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: 10,424
BTN: 4,943
Hero (SB): 6,745
BB: 18,845
UTG: 27,299
UTG+1: 7,769
MP: 22,497

Pre-Flop: (300) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls 200, UTG+1 calls 200, 4 folds, BB checks

Flop: (700) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets 400, UTG+1 calls 400, BB folds

Turn: (1,500) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets 800, UTG+1 raises to 7,169 and is All-In, UTG folds

Results: 3,100 Pot
UTG+1 mucked and WON 3,100 (+1,700 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think here you are deep enough to call with the 5 9 sooted

[/ QUOTE ]

WJL · #7 10-23-2007, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly I just was convronted with this situation

( Dont think im result oriented, i will make this fold 24/7 )

Poker Stars, $4 + $0.40 NL Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds, 7 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: 10,424
BTN: 4,943
Hero (SB): 6,745
BB: 18,845
UTG: 27,299
UTG+1: 7,769
MP: 22,497

Pre-Flop: (300) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls 200, UTG+1 calls 200, 4 folds, BB checks

Flop: (700) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets 400, UTG+1 calls 400, BB folds

Turn: (1,500) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets 800, UTG+1 raises to 7,169 and is All-In, UTG folds

Results: 3,100 Pot
UTG+1 mucked and WON 3,100 (+1,700 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think in this situation, given the action so far, you are going to show me the TT. If you got it, GG.

ZenMusician · #8 10-23-2007, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think in this situation, given the action so far, you are going to show me the TT. If you got it, GG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the posts again [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-ZEN

hERESY · #9 10-23-2007, 09:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So, how good do the odds have to be before weak hands become playable? I'm a relative newbie, so post flop play is not my strong suit. I need some guidance to navigate this maze.

Zero

[/ QUOTE ]
you should go read

WJL · #10 10-24-2007, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think in this situation, given the action so far, you are going to show me the TT. If you got it, GG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the posts again [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooops . . .