Another limp 99, flop midset on drawish multi-way board

Weevil99 · #1 10-27-2007, 07:03 PM

One of my favorite plays is to limp in from SB with a small or medium pair in hopes of flopping a set. The payoffs can be huge.

Prior to this hand, the CO and UTG had been playing at each other regularly. UTG had bluffed an all-in bet on the river a couple of hands prior to this one, and when CO folded, UTG flashed his trash hand.

That brings us to this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (7 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO (t3230)
Button (t1395)
Hero (t3225)
BB (t1950)
UTG (t2805)
MP1 (t880)
MP2 (t3970)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, MP1 calls t150, 1 fold, CO calls t150, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t750) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets t600, MP1 folds, CO raises to t1200, Hero raises to t2100, BB folds, UTG calls t1500, CO raises to t3000, Hero raises to t3075, UTG calls t555 (All-In), CO calls t75.

Turn: (t9555) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t9555) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t9555

I'm new enough at poker to not know where or even if I went wrong. My read on these two was that they were tilted at each other and pretty much ignoring me in the hand. I figured one or the other had a high pair, or maybe a 10 in the hole, and the other was furiously bluffing.

I realize that the 7 on the turn is what saved them, but I'm wondering if any of the experts on here feel like I should have folded somewhere in the middle of the betting on the flop, and if so, why?

(This is my first attempt at posting a hand. Sorry for any mistakes.)

Weevil99 · #2 10-27-2007, 07:08 PM

Minor update on the above: the tournament just finished and I am extremely happy to report that both villains washed out before the final table. This proves that they didn't deserve to win that hand. Only I deserved it. Me. Not them. Me.

Thank you.

ssnyc · #3 10-27-2007, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Minor update on the above: the tournament just finished and I am extremely happy to report that both villains washed out before the final table. This proves that they didn't deserve to win that hand. Only I deserved it. Me. Not them. Me.

Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

step one...don't take poker so seriously and especially individual hands or the mighty bitch variance will swallow you alive..until you have the chips in your stack you did not have 100% claim to the hand...deserved is a word for suckers

second...on a board this draw heavy you are going to get it all in if you can especially in a tourney...don't dwell on how it turned out

Weevil99 · #4 10-27-2007, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Minor update on the above: the tournament just finished and I am extremely happy to report that both villains washed out before the final table. This proves that they didn't deserve to win that hand. Only I deserved it. Me. Not them. Me.

Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

step one...don't take poker so seriously and especially individual hands or the mighty bitch variance will swallow you alive..until you have the chips in your stack you did not have 100% claim to the hand...deserved is a word for suckers

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. I was really joking for the most part, though. I've taken enough beatings since I started playing that it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it did in the beginning. Now, I rarely get through more than 3 or 4 minutes of plotting my evil revenge before the feeling wears off and I start looking for another tournament to play.

[ QUOTE ]
second...on a board this draw heavy you are going to get it all in if you can especially in a tourney...don't dwell on how it turned out

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was wondering. It felt like the correct play at the time, in spite of how it turned out. But when the villains hit their draw, I started wondering if my play had been a huge blunder that experienced players would spot immediately. After thinking about it some more, I believe I should have shoved all at once after the flop, even though I don't think it would have pushed either of them out, the way they were playing. It would have at least given me a better chance of taking down the pot right away. I just kept thinking I would draw them into bigger and bigger raises and eventually get all their chips. Maybe that was a little too greedy. I probably should have been happy with what was already there and forced the issue with a single bet.

Thanks for the reply.

Sherman · #5 10-27-2007, 08:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Minor update on the above: the tournament just finished and I am extremely happy to report that both villains washed out before the final table. This proves that they didn't deserve to win that hand. Only I deserved it. Me. Not them. Me.

Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to win at poker you really have to grow up / change your attitude. This one won't work.

Sherman

Albino Lord · #6 10-27-2007, 08:55 PM

Couple of things here: if you read that two players were just out for each other you may have considered folding. Its a hard fold I know, but its a distinct possibility one of them had a hand and the other was on the flush/straight draw. You don't want to be drawing against 2 hands with middle set.

Going with your check raise move you should have shoved. There were two players in with another to go behind you. It tells everyone that you have a monster and it will make the two who were ignoring you take notice. Just re-raising the near min was a bad move.

ssnyc · #7 10-27-2007, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Couple of things here: if you read that two players were just out for each other you may have considered folding. Its a hard fold I know, but its a distinct possibility one of them had a hand and the other was on the flush/straight draw. You don't want to be drawing against 2 hands with middle set.

Going with your check raise move you should have shoved. There were two players in with another to go behind you. It tells everyone that you have a monster and it will make the two who were ignoring you take notice. Just re-raising the near min was a bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding part is not good...
CRAI is fine

ChipSpeak · #8 10-28-2007, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Minor update on the above: the tournament just finished and I am extremely happy to report that both villains washed out before the final table. This proves that they didn't deserve to win that hand. Only I deserved it. Me. Not them. Me.

Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pfucking retarded.

The hand is interesting, shove that flop every time action like that comes at you, you're never folding here.

Dunkman · #9 10-28-2007, 02:38 AM

Just jam PF, your hand is much better than 22, so why turn it into that. I think I'd have to lead the flop because it would be such a disaster if it checked through, and anyone with a decent draw will probably just shove at you anyway.

Weevil99 · #10 10-28-2007, 07:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Couple of things here: if you read that two players were just out for each other you may have considered folding. Its a hard fold I know, but its a distinct possibility one of them had a hand and the other was on the flush/straight draw. You don't want to be drawing against 2 hands with middle set.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a very hard fold, yes. On the bubble with a middle-sized stack, it's an easy fold. But a win in this pot would have put my stack at around 10k, which is nearly always big enough to coast the rest of the way in these 4-table satellites.

[ QUOTE ]
Going with your check raise move you should have shoved. There were two players in with another to go behind you. It tells everyone that you have a monster and it will make the two who were ignoring you take notice. Just re-raising the near min was a bad move

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to see why this is so. My cunning plan was to try to draw both of them into a re-raising contest and get everyone's chips in the middle. I think that would have been good with a different board (say, K-9-8r or something), but this one was so draw-heavy, I believe now I should have just shoved immediately. The outcome probably wouldn't have changed, as these guys were very aggressive towards each other, but I think it was still more correct to shove.

It doesn't look like I posted their hands, BTW. One of them had KJ, the other had JT, neither had hearts. They both hit a J-high straight on the turn, split the pot, and I was gone.

Pokerstove gives me a 71.5% pot equity after that flop. My opponents had what I thought were good drawing hands for that board, yet when I replace their hands in pokerstove with random hands, my pot equity actually goes down a tiny amount, from 71.5% to 71.3%. This tells me, among other things, that I've been giving OESD hands a lot more respect than they've deserved, and that even the possibility of flush draws is more dangerous than I suspected.

This has been a great hand for me to learn from. I appreciate everyone's comments. Most of them, anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]