HOH 3 Problem #4

[Indiana]

Problem #4. The hand with Negreanu and Farha. Am I so wrong for wanting to bet right out on the flop? Also, given that Farha bets the flop after a check, am I so wrong for wanting to C/R?

Just seems like checking the flop is the wrong way to build a pot in this hand. Betting right out will likely get more $ won't it?

Indy

[Niediam]

I'm not good enough at MTTs to really contribute to if checking/leading is better but it seems to me that you could make good arguments for either which would atleast somewhat depend on your image and how your opponents have been playing. It definately doesn't appear to me that checking is hugely superior as Harrington suggests: 4 points for checking and 0 for betting any amount. There are several other similiar problems in the book where it seems Dan gives zero points for close decisions.

[LeadingMan]

I don't have the book in front of me, but I remember being very fascinated about this hand. Unfortunately, I may have some of the details incorrect, but what I took from this hand was how Daniel represented the turn card which i believe was a K.

At this point, in the whole multi-level thinking chess match, I think Daniel was hoping/thinking:

"Sam thinks I have K's and I want to know where I stand"

hoping that Daniel's Hand > Sam's Hand > Daniel's Represented Hand > what DG wants SF to think DG thinks SF has


A check-raise on the flop and he's now representing a hand
Sammy probably can't beat.

I don't remember what the book analysis covered.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]

Am I so wrong for wanting to bet right out on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not alone. See this discussion of the hand:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6001892

[Indiana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Am I so wrong for wanting to bet right out on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not alone. See this discussion of the hand:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6001892

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks mate!

Indy

[bobby rooney]

Betting out in situations like this is Super System 101 and I guess I tend to agree with brunson more than Harrington. I can't see how he can give 0 pts for betting any amount. In general, it seems a fault of the HOH series that he tends to slowplay a bit much which is a bit of a betting pattern tell, ie, whenever you lead players know you have a medium strength hand since you would likely check a monster.

The advantage of betting out huge hands on draw-heavy boards is that it looks like you are protecting a hand that is vulnerable so people rarely put you on the nuts.

[sahaguje]

I disagree here. I think betting is not a good play. You only have 7000, and the pot is 1000. You want to double up here. Since you have relative position on the reraiser, you have to let him bet the pot if he has an overpair, or take a useless free card if he has two overcards. Betting here (before the reraiser has spoken) is showing too much strenght. If the reraiser has an overpair maybe he will raise and chase Sam out and if he has two overcards he will fold.
Basically those who advocate betting should really think about what hand they represent. Making AK fold would be a terrible mistake. The money is much too shallow to bet. You can make a perfect check-call, bet 2/3 on turn, bet 1/2 pot on the river and double up against a big pair or 2 overcards if one hits.
If you had 15 000, betting 1000 make much more sense. If you are called you can expect to be raised on turn if you make a weak probe bet, and go all-in on the river without overbetting the pot.
With 7000, easy check call.

See you

sahaguje

[1p0kerboy]

I was gonna check/push the turn.

That option got me 0 points.

Scoring system of this book sucks.

[Berlino]

I see your point, though obviously Negreanu thought checking was better as well.

Since the player who raised Negreanu's raise pre-flop was next to act, is that not a factor favoring checking?

[bobby rooney]

I agree with you completely, and with Harrington, that you want to get as much money in on this hand as possible; however, I think the time to do it is on the flop and the way to do that is to bet and get raised. The reasons I want to play the hand fast are that a) you have two players who both represented strength by coming into a pot that was raised and reraised preflop b) the draw-heavy board and multi-way action will make someone with a big hand like a pair or set seriously consider playing fast and raising this flop and c) there are MANY turn cards that can come along and kill all your action. While I understand that stack sizes are not ideal for getting all the chips in on the flop, I can't see how checking can be so clear cut when any 8, 9, 4 or 3 makes a one-card straight out there and any spade might kill your hand and/or your action.