Concept of "pot control" in PLO

[trsh335]

Could someone please share their experiences of playing PLO and post some tips and advice regarding the concept of "pot control?" Maybe you could post some hand histories of some examples of hands both in position and out of position.

For example, say you raise on the button with 5 6 7 9 no suits and you get one caller.

The flop comes: 6 8 10 with 2 diamonds.

Your opponenet comes on firing a pot sized bet....what do you do now?

1) Just call to see if a non diamond turn comes off?

2) Raise it up with only a naked straight and no redraw?

I think "pot control" is one of the most important concepts in PLO along with "position."

I mean say the turn comes off a 2 of spades and my opponent bets out again for 2/3 of the pot....now what?

1) I feel like if I raise the turn, he is going to call with his diamond nut flush draw or top set of 10's no matter what because he has a lot of money in the pot.....so is it still right to raise the turn with only a naked straight or do I just call again?

2) I know it's important to make my opponents pay to see cards, but I feel like at the limits I play (.05/.10 & .10/.25).....there are so many stations that always call call call and when they do hit I'm am usually priced in to calling their little river bets and I lose huge pots.

So will someone please explain the concept of "pot control" by using some examples of hands that they have played?

Thanks in advance.

[wallenborn]

Whenever i go to war on this kind of flop, i inevitably run into Set+FD and find myself a 3-1 dog.

Raising the flop is certainly wrong. Headsup, in position, against a villain who is potting flops a lot, you might want to call and act on a safe turn. But if there's another opponent to act behind you, or if he is a tight player, i think this hand should be folded on the flop.

[tvta]

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Whenever i go to war on this kind of flop, i inevitably run into Set+FD and find myself a 3-1 dog

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not to be a jerk, but straight vs set/fd is a 2-1 dog.



as for the original post. on the flop with nut straight there is nothing to be excited about unless you are against a chip spewing donkey. in the situation you described, a mere call would be best on the flop. if you raise and get a reraise shove, you have a terribly difficult decision vs most opponents.

if the turn brings a boat or flush, play accordingly. this is the tricky part because you can bluff a thinking player who you read to have flopped the nuts also, or you could be getting slowplayed by a flush/boat. if a blank hits i dont mind shoving the nuts at this point if the pot leaves not much money behind. you are a favorite vs a flushdraw/set combo with 1 card to come.

[Ribbo]

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Whenever i go to war on this kind of flop, i inevitably run into Set+FD and find myself a 3-1 dog

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not to be a jerk, but straight vs set/fd is a 2-1 dog.

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Straight vs Set + Flush draw is often around 37/63
Straight wrap vs set + flush draw, now that's 20/80, a little closer to maybe what he was thinking.

[CastlesMadeASand]

i think pot control is way over rated in both plo and holdem.

[Ribbo]

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i think pot control is way over rated in both plo and holdem.

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It's definitely overrated in PLO.
It's extremely difficult to ever bet small with a nut flush draw and get lots of callers. Value betting your draw as it were. Your four cards need to stand up on their own merit heads up to be worth betting, as mostly you will find yourself getting raised any time you make small bets.

[Troll_Inc]

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i think pot control is way over rated in both plo and holdem.

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Pot control is important to consider for pot limit betting schemes. You have fewer choices on how much you can bet compared to no limit. I'll say I think it's important, but I don't have any idea on whether or not it is overrated.

Two generic examples:
1. Small stack has $50 left and the pot is $30. If you bet $30 and action is passed to the small stack, he can't raise to reopen the betting. So depending on what you want to do with the hand, you may want to bet $20 or $30.

2. Quite obviously you can't blow off draws. If a flop was raised pre-, then often there won't be enough money for both you and your opponent(s) to pot every street. Without a little planning ahead of pot size you might run into a situation where someone is priced in or perhaps you don't have a full pot sized bet left for a river bluff, etc.

NL Theory and Practice has an excellent section on the topic.

[runnerunner]

In your example we need some more information. If it is a 6 max game and the PF raiser is very aggro and makes a c bet into your nut straight I would raise it up if the money wasn't super deep and I had position. If I was out of position or someone who cold called PF fired out a pot bet, I would just call and evaluate on the turn.

You definitely don't want to play this hand for too much money on the flop without some kind of redraw.

[Micturition Man]

My understanding of the term 'pot control' in NL is different from what your PLO hand suggests.

In NL I feel like it's keeping the pot small specifically to avoid facing a possible bluff in a huge pot, and also to make you more likely to get paid on a favorable river. (By showing weakness on the turn.)

In PLO the problem is really more of hand values. The raw nut straight on a flush draw board is simply not a good hand if a lot of money is going to go in.

On the turn it becomes either a very good hand or a dead hand.

So if you're considering putting your stack in it's a lot better to see the turn.

In NL it has a lot more to do with getting paid and avoiding difficult bluff situations than with changing hand equities. (Except for the occasional spot where you check behind something like AA on a T98 suited flop.)

[runnerunner]

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My understanding of the term 'pot control' in NL is different from what your PLO hand suggests.

In NL I feel like it's keeping the pot small specifically to avoid facing a possible bluff in a huge pot, and also to make you more likely to get paid on a favorable river. (By showing weakness on the turn.)

In PLO the problem is really more of hand values. The raw nut straight on a flush draw board is simply not a good hand if a lot of money is going to go in.

On the turn it becomes either a very good hand or a dead hand.

So if you're considering putting your stack in it's a lot better to see the turn.

In NL it has a lot more to do with getting paid and avoiding difficult bluff situations than with changing hand equities. (Except for the occasional spot where you check behind something like AA on a T98 suited flop.)

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This is very well said and a great explanation of the differnece between PLO and Holdem