New to Razz, 1/2 hand

[Jim T]

5th hand after I sat down. No reads.

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

Seat 2: $36
Seat 3: $49.85
Hero: $39.60
Seat 5: $11.60
Seat 7: $42.65
Seat 8: $43.85

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

Flat call so I can fold on 4th if I catch bad, right?

4th Street - (3.10 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

I wanted to see where I stood.

5th Street - (3.55 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises

Good card for me, but scary card for villian. Given his previous call, I still think I'm ahead. Happy to see another flat call instead of a re-raise.

6th Street - (7.55 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.55 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

Probably should have checked here.

Total pot: (9.55 BB)

[*TT*]

raise all day long on 3rd, your up against a probable steal and by raising you will allow yourself to call 4th if you catch bad by inflating the size of the pot. WHY would you want to fold 4th if you catch bad? You should be thinking the opposite!

4th street - one street too late for the raise, but I like it. If you ever say "I raise to see where I stand" in a limit game again you should quit poker, its a falicy. Your raising for VALUE.

5th street - good raise, villain is pot committed. His call tells us you are likely ahead.

7th street - VALUE BET. I like! Fold to a raise.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
raise all day long on 3rd, your up against a probable steal and by raising you will allow yourself to call 4th if you catch bad by inflating the size of the pot. WHY would you want to fold 4th if you catch bad? You should be thinking the opposite!

I don't WANT to fold 4th, so I appreciate advice that will let me continue play when I start with a nice hand on 3rd.

I was under the impression that it was generally bad to bloat the pot early because it's such a big hole in most players' game to take a card off when they miss. I did think there was a good chance he was on a steal...

4th street - one street too late for the raise, but I like it. If you ever say "I raise to see where I stand" in a limit game again you should quit poker, its a falicy. Your raising for VALUE.

I did think there was a very good chance I was ahead when I raised. Information plus value bet then.

5th street - good raise, villain is pot committed. His call tells us you are likely ahead.

7th street - VALUE BET. I like! Fold to a raise.

I have a problem folding on the end. A leak I am working on correcting with limited success (though I doubt always auto-folding a made 7 to a raise on 7th would be profitable either).

A check might miss a bet, but it might also induce a bluff. I really thought he would call. If he'd have raised, a fold is probably in order, but I don't know if I'd have been able to do it.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise all day long on 3rd, your up against a probable steal and by raising you will allow yourself to call 4th if you catch bad by inflating the size of the pot. WHY would you want to fold 4th if you catch bad? You should be thinking the opposite!

I don't WANT to fold 4th, so I appreciate advice that will let me continue play when I start with a nice hand on 3rd.

I was under the impression that it was generally bad to bloat the pot early because it's such a big hole in most players' game to take a card off when they miss. I did think there was a good chance he was on a steal...

4th street - one street too late for the raise, but I like it. If you ever say "I raise to see where I stand" in a limit game again you should quit poker, its a falicy. Your raising for VALUE.

I did think there was a very good chance I was ahead when I raised. Information plus value bet then.

5th street - good raise, villain is pot committed. His call tells us you are likely ahead.

7th street - VALUE BET. I like! Fold to a raise.

I have a problem folding on the end. A leak I am working on correcting with limited success (though I doubt always auto-folding a made 7 to a raise on 7th would be profitable either).

A check might miss a bet, but it might also induce a bluff. I really thought he would call. If he'd have raised, a fold is probably in order, but I don't know if I'd have been able to do it.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

1) There are times to call 3rd against a possible steal, and times to raise. When your 3 card hand is as strong as the one you hold, a 3rd street raise is advised vs a likely steal, especially if he is likely to call 4th street if you catch good, which is very common of the players online at your limit.

2) Quit raising for information. Its a ridiculous notion that has been disproven, see the classic post in the archives from Ed Miller (its a Hold'em post, but its relevant). What information to you expect to get from your raise?

3) Your probably not inducing a bluff with your board if you check the river, if he can raise vs your board you have to fold because your most likely crushed... BUT calling a raise isn't horrible due to the size of the pot. Thin value bets over time will net you a great profit.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Quit raising for information. Its a ridiculous notion that has been disproven, see the classic post in the archives from Ed Miller (its a Hold'em post, but its relevant). What information to you expect to get from your raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

From your first response:

[ QUOTE ]
5th street - good raise, villain is pot committed. His call tells us you are likely ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you mention (on the next street, granted), I expect to find out if I'm ahead or not.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Quit raising for information. Its a ridiculous notion that has been disproven, see the classic post in the archives from Ed Miller (its a Hold'em post, but its relevant). What information to you expect to get from your raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

From your first response:

[ QUOTE ]
5th street - good raise, villain is pot committed. His call tells us you are likely ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you mention (on the next street, granted), I expect to find out if I'm ahead or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it, what do you gain from raising to find out where you stand? Its really not wise to think that way, it will cost you more than you gain in the long run.

In my prior responce I said the raise is correct, but its not correct as you assume because you are trying to get information... its correct because you are most likely ahead and there is value in raising in the long run, the raise is to get more money in the pot.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Leader]

It's important to raise 3rd both because you are very likely to have the best hand and because he could be stealing and you don't want him to be able to out draw you on 4th where you might have to fold. Actually you should probably call 4th even if you call 3rd and miss because you have such a good hand with 2 of your hole cards out and none of the cards you need out. This might be a close decision though. If you re-reraise on 3rd, it isn't.

The rest is fine. Fold to a river raise.

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
Think about it, what do you gain from raising to find out where you stand? Its really not wise to think that way, it will cost you more than you gain in the long run.

In my prior responce I said the raise is correct, but its not correct as you assume because you are trying to get information... its correct because you are most likely ahead and there is value in raising in the long run, the raise is to get more money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, let me thank you again for taking the time to critique my play. I appreciate it.

Now...

As I said in a follow up post, I thought that I had a very good chance of being ahead. Isn't a bet when you think you're probably leading a value bet?

However, the information I picked up was ALSO worth something. It lead me to raise again the next street even though his board was very scary and he showed renewed aggression. If I hadn't raised on 4th and merely been called, I don't see how I could have reasonably raised on 5th with a made 76 versus his represented made 6.

I understand your point that I should be thinking more in terms of betting for value than in trying to get information. I agree that in general, value betting is much more ... valuable ... than betting for information. In this case, I think they were BOTH good reasons for raising 4th.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your point that I should be thinking more in terms of betting for value than in trying to get information. I agree that in general, value betting is much more ... valuable ... than betting for information. In this case, I think they were BOTH good reasons for raising 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me say it again, DONT ever raise to see where you stand, gain information, etc. There is no value in those raises, there is only long term losses, they are -ev. However raising for value is +ev, you raise for value because you are likely ahead of your opponent, you want more money in the pot.

Your problem is that your doing the right thing, but applying the wrong terms... I'm just trying to stop you from thinking that way, so next time you don't make a wrong move in the name of "information finding".

Although we discussed value raises as +EV, there are other "types" of raises that also have a positive expected value in the long run, but they are mostly designed to either jam or isolate.

I suggest you read Theory of Poker, this may become clearer to you after. I may not be as good as David Sklansky in explaining this concept, I tend to rush through and use layman's terms.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]