step by step KK - Page 4

fitnessfreak · #31 10-09-2007, 07:13 AM

its become pretty obvious for reasons already stated that its going to be impossible to "disguise" your hand as some ppl like to describe it. i prefer to just 4bet pre to make life easier and hopefully get villain to shove with AK, JJ-QQ and get the shortie in there too. postflop always becomes such a headache too as you dont really have a great idea of what kind of hand the btn has, and you are probably not going to like any flop with a card higher than a 9 that doesnt also contain a K.

Praetor · #32 10-09-2007, 07:15 AM

i4 bet pf

john kane · #33 10-09-2007, 07:22 AM

cc sucks as that is flipping your hand as a JJ+ where at least by 4betting there is a slim chance you are making a play, plus your giving him worse odds etc.

either way, cc sucks becuase i cant think of many hands bar JJ+ a 25/20 reg calls a 3bet with for 1/10th of effective stacks.

schwza · #34 10-09-2007, 12:10 PM

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How is moving down going to change my line of thinking?

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because you think in short-term decisions rather than about the correct long-term plays, and it could possibly be because of the amount of $ you are playing with, and the subsequent results

if you move down where the $ is not as significant to you, you can focus on making the right play and not on what will guarantee you short-term positive results

its as if you had AA preflop at 10/20, but decide to shove preflop because you would be winning the blinds 99% of the time, "locking in" those short-term results of winning the blinds of $30, rather than raising normally which would obviously be far more +ev but with a higher chance of losing $2k

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wow you have no idea what you're talking about.

ttgirl · #35 10-09-2007, 12:17 PM

i dont think anyone is 5bet shoving jj-qq from the button... does anyone even consider how much the co being short changes the dynamics of this hand?

mak15 · #36 10-09-2007, 12:44 PM

id fold preflop since that's the only way to disquise the strength of your hand.

futuredoc85 · #37 10-09-2007, 01:35 PM

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i dont think anyone is 5bet shoving jj-qq from the button... does anyone even consider how much the co being short changes the dynamics of this hand?

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read the thread at all much?

ddubois · #38 10-09-2007, 01:47 PM

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does anyone even consider how much the co being short changes the dynamics of this hand?

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Exactly in what way do you think CO being short changes the dynamics of the hand? IMO, it warps BTN's range away from A) a more polarized range of monsters and speculative hands (AQ+/JJ+/A2s+/54s+) towards B) big card hands that want to be all in preflop for 20bb (AT+/77+). But I have less of an opinion as to how it will change the perception of your 4-bet. Do think your 4-bet would be taken less seriously given shorty, or more seriously? I'm leaning towards less.

Dire · #39 10-09-2007, 02:52 PM

How is this turn so simple a fold? Our hand is somewhat face up, and a villain with a big hand (AA/TT/JJ) has to figure we're drawing to just 2 outs. Why would he overbet shove, giving us an incredibly tough decision that could easily result in a fold whereas just firing another standard sized barrel likely gets much much more value against our range?

Just seems that if he ever even considers playing AK/KQ/etc (and their 7+ outs against KK) like this then it becomes an insta-call.

CastlesMadeASand · #40 10-09-2007, 03:10 PM

id make it 240 pre.

as played i probably pitch the turn.