A9s multiway with RIO

DavidC · #1 03-08-2007, 09:07 AM

Everyone in this hand is loose, except the second cold-caller, who's unknown. A few of the loose guys are slightly aggressive, and a few of them are passive. The guy that bet the flop, though, is 18/3/not-aggro (133 hands).

I kinda felt like folding the flop, but that's maybe just a little too weak.

I was intending to check through the river unless it was a spade, ace, or 9.

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Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (17.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Lunkan · #2 03-08-2007, 09:13 AM

Raise flop. Bet turn when checked to.

Beanyman101 · #3 03-08-2007, 09:21 AM

I would definately be raising this flop and take things from there.

martybonus · #4 03-08-2007, 09:25 AM

I think you played this fine.

I'm curious about a flop raise here. It seems like it would be an error to me because this is 6-ways and you already know the people behind you have no problem callin 2 bets cold with X. At best you'll get 1 or 2 to fold but your TPTK isn't going to be good all that frequently here, especially with that semi-coordinated board.

How do we feel about folding the flop? sure, it's a bit weak to fold TPTK, but your pair isn't huge and it's a 6-way pot...might a fold be okay here, or is the pot too big to justify that? Or do we stay here because we do in fact think your TPTK is going to hold up 6-ways until the river?

i like the turn raise.

Ampelmann · #5 03-08-2007, 09:21 AM

I limp preflop, raise the flop. As played, I like the turn raise, although the board gets a bit straighty here. The river card sucks.

I really don't see how you can fold TPTK (though marginal) and a BDFD in a pot that big, especially when the others are bad.

mmctrab · #6 03-08-2007, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I limp preflop, raise the flop. As played, I like the turn raise, although the board gets a bit straighty here. The river card sucks.

I really don't see how you can fold TPTK (though marginal) and a BDFD in a pot that big, especially when the others are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

fretelöo · #7 03-08-2007, 09:47 AM

Ok, just to give you guys an idea about just how atrocious folding would be here:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

7,387,691,600 games 287.578 secs 25,689,348 games/sec

Board: 4s 5c 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.033% 45.70% 02.33% 3376120342 172405090.00 { As9s }
Hand 1: 13.309% 12.04% 01.27% 889481968 93770805.00 { 77-66, A9s-A5s, KTs-K8s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, ATo-A8o, KTo-K9o, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 19.434% 18.49% 00.94% 1366182238 69555389.33 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Hand 3: 19.224% 18.28% 00.94% 1350677100 69498667.67 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }

Now, obv. you have to adjust that to the number of players etc. (also, hand 2 and 3 have all their premiums in their range - which is probably too generous), but you get the idea.

fretelöo · #8 03-08-2007, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda felt like folding the flop, but that's maybe just a little too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little?!?!? You should be raising and hopefully 3betting that!

Turn semi-bluff raise is cool, though I'd prefer a somewhat more raggedy board for that. River check seems reasonable.

fretelöo · #9 03-08-2007, 09:30 AM

Marty,

let's try that again: I have top pair top kicker. My hand figures to be best now, but not so anymore if I let villains draw cheaply as it is a weak TP and many cards can hurt me. Since I reason to have the best hand now, I ... do what?

martybonus · #10 03-08-2007, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Marty,

let's try that again: I have top pair top kicker. My hand figures to be best now, but not so anymore if I let villains draw cheaply as it is a weak TP and many cards can hurt me. Since I reason to have the best hand now, I ... do what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so my first reaction was 'easy raise with TPTK'. But I'm not convinced it's that simple.

First off, this is a 6-way pot and i'm not convinced our weak TPTK is ahead. The flop is semi-coordinated so stupidly cold-called SCs could have been rewarded, it could also have made someone's set if they coldcalled with weak-ish PPs. We're quite possibly behind now and we're certainly going to be lucky to stand up all the way to the river. Virtually any club or T+ is a bad card. would also like to not see a 6 or a 7 unless they're spades.

So my immediate reaction and the action you suggest is to exploit our (at best small) edge. By raising the flop we can knock players off GS and BD draws, bottom pairs, etc, and in so doing raise (possibly) for value and to prevent suck-outs.

But I'm not convinced this works. First, the pot is 14.5SB, so if hero raises he's offering 15.5:2 or 7.75:1. Ignoring the specific situation for the time being, in a 6-way pot if I have a GS i'm most certainly going to call 8:1 due to implied odds. In this situation, i'd be a bit hesitatnt due to the FD, but i'd still consider it. So a raise to knock GSs prolly aint going to work here. It might not even work against people who only hold OCs with redraws, at least if they have, say, KxTc. I can't see a raise knocking all 3 coldcallers out. Maybe 1-2 which still leaves us in a 4-5 way pot with a weak TPTK and LOADS of scary cards which could come.

Also, we're not *sure* the coldcallers have air. If we raise and get 3banged, do we then fold?

I guess i'm not convinced about the raise because it a) isn't really for value cos we're quite possibly behind in this 6-way pot and b) even if we get 1-2 people to fold, our TPTK is still losing to loads of cards on the turn. It may make people with bottom pair or BDFD fold, but it's not going to make much a difference to the GS draw-ers.

So that's my reasoning for suggesting we consider a fold. In retrospect, a call is probably the worst option.