Playing a shortstacker HU (50bb or less): Is there a point to it?

[dlpnyc21]

I've been thinking about this a ton lately as I've started playing HU quite often (about 50% of my play these days).

Assume 25/50 HU (it doesn't matter the stakes clearly).

When someone with 50bb or less sits down v. me, I immediately sit out and say "no shortstacks."

But then I think to myself, hey, there is 2k or 1.5k or 2.5k in front of me for the taking. If these players sat with 4k (80bbs is my "cutoff" point), I would play them in a second, and if someone sits with an awkward amount like 2872.50, I play them, but for some reason I seem to believe the negatives of playing shortstackers hu outweigh the positives.

But I'd like to get some HSNL'ers thoughts on the subject.

Here are the postives/negatives as I see them (the point of the thread is to generate discussion).


Positives:
1. You probably have an edge on them skill wise HU.
1a. Your edge in ring games is virtually nil (good shortstackers from what I've datamined are some of the biggest winners in terms of ptbb/100). HU since I haven't played many shortstackers I can't estimate.
2. HU they can't "hide" as well. Because every hand you are paying to see a flop they have to play more hands, and as they do so my edge theoretically increases.

Negatives:
1. They will hit and run you, guaranteed. Once they win, your money is gone and you won't have a chance to recoup.
2. Your can't reraise preflop as much. A big part of a good HU players edge is playing reraised pots OOP. Shortstackers decisions are easy, they basically only have to play the flop in a reraised pot. Reraising with suited connects or mid pairs loses all it's value (if this is wrong, let me know).
3. It could tilt you. I played a shortstacker on ub once, I forget his name, but he sat with 1k at 10/25 and I dumped 11k to him. I wanted to vomit after.


I'll think of other things as they come to me.

I'd also like to know anyone's opinion on playing optimally v. an opponent with 50bbs or less.

What sorts of preflop and flop adjustments are you making vs. them? What other sorts of strategic adjustments are you making?

Is it worth playing them?

Thanks for any input,

dlpnyc21

[ActionJeff]

I go out of my way to play these guys HU even when they have the min, they often have NO idea wtf they are doing to play HU shortstacked, and if you know how to combat them they're toast

[ActionJeff]

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2. Your can't reraise preflop as much. A big part of a good HU players edge is playing reraised pots OOP.

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what in the world are you talking about? lol

[Eagles]

I used to not play them but you really should.

Most people who short stack HU are absolutely terrible and you have a huge edge. Also some shortstackers especially at 25/50 are sitting with their whole roll and are just giant fish. From my experience playing midstakes I don't think I have played a single short stacker HU who was competent.

[raptor517]

dlp, i have many many heated arguments with durr about this, as he will adamantly play anyone at any stakes any time for any amount of bbs, and im like you, i just sit out if somoene sits less than 100x.

i feel like against most of these people i have a clear edge, but then, if they make money, they instaquit, so i dont have any ability to get it back from them with deeper stacks. also, if someone sits for 20x, and somehow runs it up a bit and sticks around, i feel like i HAVE to be playing worse because at back of my mind im pissed i let some 20x stack run up on me, and even if he ends up making a buyin or 2 and quitting, which isnt that much in the big scheme of things, the fact that he did it with a 20x stack just puts me on monkey tilt.

as far as how to play against them, i just limp every hand and play my position. most of them suck post flop so u can beat the crap out of them playing small pot poker. but yea, it doesnt really matter cuz i wont ever play shorties HU. its just not worth it to me for all of the negative factors. i mean, i feel like its +ev for sure, but i rather sit out till someone full stacked comes to sit. at nosebleed stakes thsi could be different as lots of games dont come around v often, and when they do its against someone usually pretty solid, so i dno. but yea at 10-20 or whatever i wont play shorties.

[ActionJeff]

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as far as how to play against them, i just limp every hand and play my position.

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This is a fine strategy. Also dont do dumb [censored] like 3-betting suited connectors all the time that u guys probably do a lot (possibly too much) 100 bbs deep, and ur fine. I feel like I never lose to these guys, and occasionally you get one who goes on monkey tilt and burns their roll min-buying.

[raptor517]

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as far as how to play against them, i just limp every hand and play my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fine strategy. Also dont do dumb [censored] like 3-betting suited connectors all the time that u guys probably do a lot (possibly too much) 100 bbs deep, and ur fine. I feel like I never lose to these guys, and occasionally you get one who goes on monkey tilt and burns their roll min-buying.

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haha thats v true about the one guy who monkey tilts and loses all min buying. i guess i forgot about that part. i dno, again, i def think its +ev i just get annoyed and prob tilt a bit when they hit and run, or even stick around and double up a couple times. but i def agree that most are pretty weak players.

[dlpnyc21]

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2. Your can't reraise preflop as much. A big part of a good HU players edge is playing reraised pots OOP.

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what in the world are you talking about? lol

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I feel I make a lot of my $ HU v. full stacks (and deep stacks) in reraised pots where I have initiative. Many play poorly in reraised pots. I'm sure you make a lot of your money in reraised pots with pre-flop initiative, as well.

[ActionJeff]

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2. Your can't reraise preflop as much. A big part of a good HU players edge is playing reraised pots OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

what in the world are you talking about? lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I make a lot of my $ HU v. full stacks (and deep stacks) in reraised pots where I have initiative. Many play poorly in reraised pots. I'm sure you make a lot of your money in reraised pots with pre-flop initiative, as well.

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Obviously there are players who play poorly in position in 3 bet pots. I do make money OOP after 3-betting preflop, although much of that is from winning the pot without a flop. The rest (and many of the big pots) exist just to compensate. This is true against most decent opponents; vs. those who it isn't, thats usually because they call too much and make exceptionally poor decisions after the flop. They suck. These are the players who lose the most HU and aren't around for long.

I also make a lot of my money when I am on the button and players who think they have unquantifiable edges that apparently come with putting in extra $ preflop OOP try to win the pot from me when ignoring the actual hand ranges and how they mesh with the board texture.

What is initiative?

If some guy in the big blind decided to relentlessly 3-bet me with a huge % of his hands he would lose and lose and lose, and I wouldn't even have to 4-bet him to gain back "initiative" or whatever. Just as how a player who only played half his hands on the button would lose and lose.

This reminds me of a HU match on UB 50-100. My opponent was stuck to me and was making decisions very quickly, possibly tilting and playing very aggresively. I decided to start limping the button every hand, which drove him nuts. He raised me over 1/2 the time that I limped and tried to win the pot postflop with his preflop initiative. What he obviously didn't understand (or possibly care about) was that this initiative didn't exist in our game. I was limping my whole range, and playing a set range to his raises. His raising range was wide but defined. It would be the same as if I open the button and my opponent calls a high % of the time I can estimate, and then just donks into me every flop. The result of this scenario is obvious; the pots are going to be really big and its going to be a variance war- which the big blind inevitably loses. He has no other plays in his arsenal, and most importantly is out of position with a range of hands not much stronger than my own. You adjust, they don't, game over. Ship the Sklansky $.

My point is that playing 3-bet pots OOP HU doesn't have a whole lot to day with playing a HU NLHE cash game against an opponent with a stack of a set size and exploiting their specific tendencies.


-Jeff

[jmxthievez]

dlpnyc21,

i agree with you on many of these counts about playing shortstackers and thought in a similar way previously.

But recently, I played HU vs a shortstacker (Legend on ub, maybe you know him) against my better judgement because:
1. I just flat out hated the guy
2. He annoyed the living hell out of me
3. Wanted him to go busto so he can't shortstack anymore. (why not help him out?)

Anyway, I used the small pot strategy that an above poster suggested or something similar and basically just busted him over and over for little to no variance because he was SO bad postflop.

I guess my point is, it's definitely not going to be as fun to play a shortstacker HU than someone at 100bb, but it can be profitable. If there are no other games running, playing a shortstacking regular may not be that -EV for you. However, if the added factor that they might win big and leave tilts you, then it's far better to avoid them. Worst comes to worst, you can always get in the ring and feel them out for a few hands and see if they are competent. It's pretty easy to quickly determine if they have a clue what theyre doing. If they do, just sit out, if not you can kill some time making some easy, low variance money until someone with 100bb comes around. Just my 0.02.