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#51
10-03-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm just trying to understand this better to maybe fix a leak in my own game. Why is calling AJo OOP better than 3betting? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I have a tough time on playing good but not great hands from the blinds when I feel villain is stealing. I feel like we're wasting our hand if we 3-bet KQ/AJ, but then if we just call, we'll be continuing to flop that won't hit us 1/3 of the time. [/ QUOTE ] The problem here is a pretty basic reverse implied odds question. If his attempts to steal is over 33% ish I would be re-raising this usually, as he folds a very large percent of his steals to a reraise. Instant profit for us. What is far more likely is that his attempt to steals is somewhere around 20%. AJo is comfortably ahead of his range for betting. However, he will not be folding to a 3-bet often enough for 3-betting to be profitable within itself. For the times that he does call or reraise we are in terrible shape. His hands which he probably calls with, such as AQ, AK, TT etc, sometimes AA and KK, have us dominated in a big pot. At best, it makes it easy for our opponent to play correctly against us. I hope that is clear, feel free to ask again if any of it isnt. [/ QUOTE ] That was a much better interpretation of what I was trying to say. Sweet post panda. 
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#52
10-03-2007, 01:07 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
Panda, when he holds AQ and AK but misses the flop (which is obviously most of the time), aren't we still in good shape? In this case, we're the aggressor and we stand to pick up a pot on the flop with a worse hand. This assumes he doesn't fold to our 3bet. I know you may have posted this before reading Pokey's post above, but his post basically explains why we're still in a profitable situation (potentially).
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#53
10-03-2007, 01:11 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
Pokey's post does not really address the issue of RIO, which is the main problem with 3betting AJ and KQ. You will fold out anything you beat, and barely anything that beats you. You will never get value from a worse hand, but you will lose a ton of unnecessary monies to better hands.
I'm all for 3betting with 22, I've said it many times. It's a COMPLETELY different issue with a hand like AJ or KQ.
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#55
10-03-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
[ QUOTE ]
Pokey's post does not really address the issue of RIO, which is the main problem with 3betting AJ and KQ. You will fold out anything you beat, and barely anything that you beat. You will never get value from a worse hand, but you will lose a ton of unnecessary monies to better hands. I'm all for 3betting with 22, I've said it many times. It's a COMPLETELY different issue with a hand like AJ or KQ. [/ QUOTE ] Correct.
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#56
10-03-2007, 01:17 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Pokey's post does not really address the issue of RIO, which is the main problem with 3betting AJ and KQ. You will fold out anything you beat, and barely anything that you beat. You will never get value from a worse hand, but you will lose a ton of unnecessary monies to better hands. I'm all for 3betting with 22, I've said it many times. It's a COMPLETELY different issue with a hand like AJ or KQ. [/ QUOTE ] Correct. [/ QUOTE ] so what is your standard play with these hands in the blinds against a tight player and loose player? and how do you continue on the following flops (assume you have AJ): 3 6 8 rainbow A 5 8 rainbow QT9 rainbow
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#57
10-03-2007, 01:20 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Pokey's post does not really address the issue of RIO, which is the main problem with 3betting AJ and KQ. You will fold out anything you beat, and barely anything that you beat. You will never get value from a worse hand, but you will lose a ton of unnecessary monies to better hands. I'm all for 3betting with 22, I've said it many times. It's a COMPLETELY different issue with a hand like AJ or KQ. [/ QUOTE ] Correct. [/ QUOTE ] so what is your standard play with these hands in the blinds against a tight player and loose player? and how do you continue on the following flops (assume you have AJ): 3 6 8 rainbow A 5 8 rainbow QT9 rainbow [/ QUOTE ] Against a tight player I'm checkraising all three. Against a loose player I'll fold hand one, c/c hands two and three. I generally fold a lot more preflop because I don't wanna play a TAG OOP with a weak hand - but this was about 3-betting so I said it was better to call. This needs to be said because I said to call with this hand - I meant to call instead of 3-bet. I generally fold.
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#58
10-03-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
Pokey
There is a dynamic thing here, if you 3bet a lot oop ... then thinking villians will start call you and you can have fun playing RRs pots oop. And if they are good, expecting them to fold flop is very optimistic (even if they hold monumantal crap a lot of the time). At the micro's on the other hand ... well ... all is fair.
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#59
10-03-2007, 01:25 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
[ QUOTE ]
Panda, when he holds AQ and AK but misses the flop (which is obviously most of the time), aren't we still in good shape? In this case, we're the aggressor and we stand to pick up a pot on the flop with a worse hand. This assumes he doesn't fold to our 3bet. I know you may have posted this before reading Pokey's post above, but his post basically explains why we're still in a profitable situation (potentially). [/ QUOTE ] This is a good point. I didn't deal with any post flop in my post as I didn't want it to get confusing. You are correct in that continuation betting when our 3 bet is called is probably +ev. This will depend upon our image, how this opponent plays against us in 3 bet pots and how much of a thinking player he is or isn't. It should be pretty clear how all these variables affect the profitability of 3 betting. If c-betting in our 3 bet pot is profitable, ignoring our cards, then that's great. However, we will be flopping top pair once in a while. Especially on an A high board, our hand becomes very tricky to play as we have a big pot compared to our stacks and a marginal hand which is dominated by villains range for calling a 3 bet.
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#60
10-03-2007, 01:27 PM
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Re: Why 3bet?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Pokey's post does not really address the issue of RIO, which is the main problem with 3betting AJ and KQ. You will fold out anything you beat, and barely anything that you beat. You will never get value from a worse hand, but you will lose a ton of unnecessary monies to better hands. I'm all for 3betting with 22, I've said it many times. It's a COMPLETELY different issue with a hand like AJ or KQ. [/ QUOTE ] Correct. [/ QUOTE ] so what is your standard play with these hands in the blinds against a tight player and loose player? and how do you continue on the following flops (assume you have AJ): 3 6 8 rainbow A 5 8 rainbow QT9 rainbow [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] fold > call > 3bet with AJ imo [/ QUOTE ]
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