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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:01 AM
Somekid Somekid is offline
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Default $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

Very early, so no solid read. My opponent seemed loose, but I didn't know much else.

When I get c/r on the flop, I know I'm probably ahead...is calling the c/r okay, or should I 3-bet? I was torn between 3-bet the flop, or playing the hand as I did (getting AI on a safe turn)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t1440)
BB (t1560)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t120) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t160</font>, Hero calls t80.

Turn: (t440) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t260</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1220</font>
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:21 AM
tmcdmck tmcdmck is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

i like a 3bet on the flop if your plan is to get it in because, quite frankly, there are very very few safe turns (even if they never do this with air, 3s 5s 6s 7s 8s Ts Js and Qs are definite scare cards, and any card could pair their kicker if they have one pair).

the only time i like calling the flop is if they are a massive dirty bluffer, but even then i think it is only just better than a 3bet on the flop due to the copious number of scare cards
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:39 AM
theordinaryboy theordinaryboy is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

i agree with tmc, if the flop was K83 and you held KQ then sure just call the 3 bet and raise the turn all-in. However, way to many scare cards so decide am i playing for stack here and if so 4 bet that flop.
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:35 PM
Somekid Somekid is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

Hmm, my concern with 3-betting against the c/r was that then we have an even bigger pot and I could be facing a scare card. But...I guess that's not much different from the way I played it.

So I guess the question is how big to 3-bet the flop. I want to push this flop, but that probably won't maximize value. Maybe I should 3-bet to about 500 and shove any turn.
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:25 PM
theordinaryboy theordinaryboy is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

pretty much yeah, maybe like 550-600, against some players a shove is fine too. Ones that overvalue hands and would call with 9T or 76
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:51 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

Those check min raises suck. I never respect them as actual strength and take the rest of the hand slowly.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:45 PM
MxGucci MxGucci is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

What was the end result of this hand? Set or Straight? Those are what I put this fella on. 6 7 or 3 3. Maybe he 2 paired on the turn or he just has top pair with a better kicker then your Q. This is a very risky shove by you, it almost screams that you rush your games just to finish them. Why not grind him down a little bit? That might be a reason why your losing at the $11s when you shouldn't be.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:59 PM
Somekid Somekid is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

While I think I misplayed this hand, I think you're implying that getting all-in with this flop is a mistake.

If I could get all-in on this flop, I wouldn't mind, and I think my best play (which would've been to 3-bet the flop to something like 550), pretty much commits me to getting all in on the turn.

I disagree that this is a very risky shove, but I'd like to hear what other people think. Grinding an opponent down is fine, but there are lots and lots of players here who are willing to get all-in with weak hands both on the flop and on this turn.

Also, I don't really see any point in posting the results, as it might skew people's comments, but you're off on your predictions.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:16 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

I disagree with trying to put the opponent on a hand. I disagree with grinding opponents down when you have clear edges early, but that is another thread that I will never get to starting. I disagree with the shove here.

I agree with our thinking that a large 3-bet is going to commit you to seeing all of your chips in the middle. You have no information here. You are, for all intents, playing against a totally random hand, except you know he check-min-raised you. How you decide to react to those, especially early in the match, is the main problem here.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:24 PM
soop soop is offline
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Default Re: $11 NLTRN: Top pair gets all-in on the turn

I think getting all in on the flop is ok. There are plenty of draws and weaker 9's you beat and not a lot of hands that beat you (overpairs tend to raise pf, 93,83 tend to fold). I mean if he is kinda passive you can assume a check min raise is a big hand, but given no reads it seems ok.

Assuming you don't fold, calling &gt; shoving flop &gt; 3betting to 500 IMO.

Let's take 3betting to 500 vs shoving. Most bad players will call a 3bet with something like 67. Then they'll fold the turn to a push if you miss. The problem here is if you raise to 500, opp actually does have odds to call with something like 67 - if you push any turn. Then he can call the pushes when he hits and fold otherwise. On the other hand calling a shove with 67 would be a big plus for you.

Some quick EV calcs against 67:

EV(opp folds flop): +440
EV(opp calls flop push): +892
Ev(opp calls flop | folds turn if he misses): +400


If he doesn't have a draw, raising to 500 might keep a weak pair in. That's kinda questionable though; I get snap called by like A8 here sometimes. (Prolly makes a difference if this is a turbo or not)

Personally, I like calling the best. It's more read dependent b/c he has to semi-bluff a fair amount, but it traps extra money in the pot and people will put you on a draw and call more.
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