To raise the flop with OESD?

maverickai · #1 10-29-2007, 12:44 PM

No reads on villians.

Ultimate Bet 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

I was choosing between raising, and just calling. Calling will not chase flush draws players out, and it's not really protecting my hand. Reason justified?

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (9 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP3 folds, CO caps, Hero ??.

kerowo · #2 10-29-2007, 12:52 PM

You do know that a flush beats a straight right?

TomTom · #3 10-29-2007, 12:55 PM

With 6 players and a flush draw on the flop just calling is a good play; you’re looking for a safe turn card before you push.

The turn card is terrible for you, but your hand is still worth a call.

The river gives you a one card middle of the pile straight, and the CO comes alive with either the same (or the KT better) straight, a slow played flush, or some other POS.

Given you’re probably hoping to chop this pot, I call it, never raise that river.

As played, yeah, you gotta call after you throw up in your mouth.

neurotiq · #4 10-29-2007, 12:58 PM

Yep. Just call the flop with the presence of a flush draw there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Sushiglutton · #5 10-29-2007, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was choosing between raising, and just calling. Calling will not chase flush draws players out, and it's not really protecting my hand. Reason justified?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have a hand to protect. You should raise with a draw in a multi-way pot only if you have an equity edge. That means there you will win more than your fair share (hich is 1/number of players). I this hand your out are tanted so I just call.

On the river lead out. The board is very scary and you can't expect anyoe to bet a worse hand. As played I call the raise. Hopefully we are chopping with CO and it's much better to go for over calls.

RemyXO · #6 10-29-2007, 03:17 PM

On the flop decision - I don't remember exactly which thread I read it in first time or who said, but the line was "NEVER PUMP YOUR STRAIGHT DRAWS FOR EQUITY ON THE FLOP WITH TWO-SUITED BOARD". Well, unless it's 10-handed and you are drawing to the nut straight [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Whoever said that, thank you. Saved me many a bet.

MoonOrb · #7 10-29-2007, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the river lead out. The board is very scary and you can't expect anyoe to bet a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm totally confused, by why are we leading out on the river here? Who do we expect to call us that we can beat? Or is the plan to b/f? If b/f is the line we're taking, isn't this just spew? Or do we expect MP3 to just call down after we donk?

After that J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes, you're hurting. You could be drawing dead and at best you might be playing for half the pot. So my goal would be to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible.

On the river, I check this again--and here people can rip me for being weak-tight--but I'll fold if it's two bets to me since I'm concerned about these things: (1) now that the CO has woken up and reraised, it might end up being capped and it will cost me 4 BB to show down, not 2 (2) there's a flush out there, do I really want to be calling a lot of bets and pay off to a flush? and (3) four cards to a straight means there's a good chance I'm chopping here so my odds to call are not as good. If I was closing the action I'd probably call, though. MP3 could easily have a pair of Qs and we'd split the pot with CO. But our position is a big problem.

On the flop, I can't think of any reason to raise this. You have 6 clean outs with the FD. Like you said, you're not going to push anyone with 2 hearts out of the pot. I think calling is the way to go here.

Fantam · #8 10-29-2007, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the river, I check this again----but I'll fold if it's two bets to me

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also check/call this river, and I dont like the idea of calling 2 bets.

Hey, I know that .02/.04 might be loose, but I suspect that the players still like to win. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

maverickai · #9 10-30-2007, 01:30 AM

Me 'feel' for this table, at such stakes is that players are so loose, and they raise the river with ridiculous cards. Maybe my re-raise was dubious on hind sight, and a call could have been better. I thought about a possible flush, but didn't encounter any raise on the turn, hence that lowered the probability of someone hitting the flush by a lot. Correct reasoning?

Hands that beat us, KT, made flush.

But yah, I can't reason out why sushiglutton said leading the river is good. Sushi, what line will you take here if someone raises, and comes back 1 bet to you? If HERO leads out, raised by UTG and re-raised by CO and comes to 2 bets to you, do you call?

bennyhana · #10 10-30-2007, 10:13 AM

the thought of folding after your river spew is almost as bad as your turn call.

you shouldn't be putting more than 2 bets in on this river EVAR. Granted you will win more by morans overplaying their weak hands, but this isn't one of those situations. You can actually win at these games by out folding your opponnents.

I get the feeling you won the hand, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it.

Red Sox are awesome.