Zero Rake Poker Business plan

[MicroBob]

It definitely is high I would think.

Average rake on 5/10 limit is in the $1.30 range I believe.
Obviously most people play lower than that.

Average pot of $10 on a .5/1 NL game would put it in the $0.50 average rake department.

Considering all those micro tables that rake maybe $0.02 at a time I would think the average rake on Stars is way lower than $1. Just not enough tables regularly maxing out to $3 rake to compensate for all those $0.02 raked-hands.

[deaders]

This idea seem a bit contradictory - you talk about tables full of fish, free from the multi-tabling nits, but what attracts these fish to the site in the first place? Your average fish isnt even aware of the rake, and if they are its a minor concern that doesn't stop them from enjoying a game on the site that lets them play with the pros or the one that chris moneymaker won a WSOP entry on.

The whole concept of 'zero rake' appeals largely to the multi-tablers, so where is the sites traffic going to come from?

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
This idea seem a bit contradictory - you talk about tables full of fish, free from the multi-tabling nits, but what attracts these fish to the site in the first place?
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what fish? anybody seen any rec players on Stars or Full Tilt lately?
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Your average fish isnt even aware of the rake, and if they are its a minor concern that doesn't stop them from enjoying a game on the site that lets them play with the pros or the one that chris moneymaker won a WSOP entry on.
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If a fish would actually put money onto one of these sites, you might have a point. remember, the fish all think it is illegal to play online now.
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The whole concept of 'zero rake' appeals largely to the multi-tablers, so where is the sites traffic going to come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

In case you haven't been paying attention, the ONLY traffic on these sites is multitabling grinders.

So, you want a site so fishy it makes Party 2004 look downright tight? What is it worth to you? What are you willing to do? How do YOU ALL plan on getting such a site? You waiting on the tooth fairy? WTO? Barney Frank? Me?

Since I am full of it, what is your plan? Oh, no plan at all? Then don't knock mine. (even though you don't know what it is) Just get down on your benders and pray I succeed.



Tuff

[BuddyQ]

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One reason I am not really telling all the details is that there may be a way to make some money here. Probably not but possible. I want to to get my ideas vetted by a couple of people

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[Dennisa]

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Expenses:
1. Players would pay whatever fees for deposits. It is done in other businesses. The MC charges are about 2%.


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When I was playing at Gamesgrid as a prop player we payed 6% for each neteller deposit. This was at a tier two site with an endorsement and track record with Backgammon. Your site will be lucky to be considered a tier 3 site.

MC charges 1.6% + a small transaction fee for swiped transactions. It is standard to add 1% for mail order. Another 1% for international transaction or corporate cards. The porn industry typically pays another 1-2% premium above mail order. Gambling transactions run higher than porn. 2% will never happen. I would expect 7-10% if you could get accepted at all. I do not know what epassport charges, I would guess around the 8.9% neteller charged for instapurchases. At another 1-2% since your site will have no track record.

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2. Cost of hosting a sever. About $1,000/month. Set up multiple servers for backup, total $5,000/month or $60k/year.


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Probably correct, but you would need a company that asks no questions. No budget for multiple T1 or T3 connections. Major providers will not be happy hosting gambling transactions. Its the lawyers.
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3. Customer service is scalable based upon the number of players. I don't know how to price that.
4. Security team to uncover collusion. Again, that may be tough to budget. One thought is that you publish all hand histories and let the players police it.

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You need to budget more than just collusion. Who is going to investigate the deposit fraud?
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Revenue:
1. Donations. If there are 1,000 players with 1,000 hands per month, that is 1 million hands. If donations are $1 per hand, that is $1 million per month. For comparison, PokerStars runs about 100 million hands per month.


[/ QUOTE ]

1M hands per month will be an average of 35 tables operating 16 hours a day 30 days per month. That seems very optimistic for the start.
Putting a donations button on the table will take this quasi legal enterprise into an illegal enterprise in a sufficient number of states.

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Remember, the cost is scalable depending on the number of players. The setup costs are low because you can get software that is in the public domain (ie., pokerspot)

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No offense, but someone better read the code with a fine tooth comb to make sure Dutch and company did not leave back doors for themselves.

[Dennisa]

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Donations are voluntary and tipping the dealer is not rake. If you have a case for Colorado, please cite it.

For Colorado, membership fees are considered rake only if they are tied to the game. There are very active games at the various country clubs in Denver and they all charge dues, but not specifically for poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not case to site. I lived in Colorado for 13 years. I do remember around Superbowl time the radio stations discussing rules for gambling / pools.

If you pay for a membership at a country club, its mainly for the club itself and poker is not a primary benefit. There are no legal poker club memberships in Colorado. If you charged dues for this site, its main service would need to be non gambling related. If its only service is rake free poker, I doubt it will fly in the vanilla poker world.

[Mitch Evans]

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what fish? anybody seen any rec players on Stars or Full Tilt lately?

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Yes. Sure, it's not Party 2003, but it certainly isn't Paradise 1999. If you can't beat it, just play live and stick to play games on the internet. No hudbots in the play games. If you can't beat live, stick to matchsticks with your family. You don't have to play poker for money if it's not fun for you and you have a job.


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In case you haven't been paying attention, the ONLY traffic on these sites is multitabling grinders.

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Not true...


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Since I am full of it, what is your plan? Oh, no plan at all? Then don't knock mine. (even though you don't know what it is) Just get down on your benders and pray I succeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see... pray you succeed even though we don't know what it is? Would you mind telling us, or are you afraid someone's going to steal your idea? Can you at least explain how you are going to fund this? So far the ideas people have come up with have been less than stellar.

[freecard4all]

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can we play rake-free internet poker there?

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If yes, I'm for it!

[Benjamin]

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Set up the card room as a non-profit. Hire an experienced and successful non-profit fundraiser. I think money would rain down into such a non-profit from all the wealthy people in the US who love poker.

Charge a membership fee: $25 annually, with prizes and levels and stuff if you give more, like all non-profits. I.e. 'World Champion' level giving of $50,000 or more gets you an entry to the WSOP and all the prizes from lower levels.

You don't think rich poker players like Gates and Soros would donate significant funds to such a non-profit?

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either my sarcasm detector is broken or I don't get the point.
I considered the first paragraph to be a joke [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


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The point is supporting the widening availability and legalization of a game that you love. Millions of people love the game of poker. Every one of them is a potential supporter.
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And no, I don't think anyone would admit publicly that he "posted 1.000.000 for hungry children, 1.000.000 for peace and 1.000.000 for gambling for free".

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No one has to publicize their donation if they are worried about fall-out from the religious right.

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If Tuff Fish gets some advertisement this idea can work.

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I'm not sure if you can fit ads in with the non-profit business model. I'm not sure about Tuff's plans, just thinking.

You might well have to limit the number of states it's available in severely at first, maybe even just pick the most favorable single one to start with to try to get it up and running without an expensive legal battle.

[freecard4all]

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1. Players would pay whatever fees for deposits. It is done in other businesses. The MC charges are about 2%.

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bad idea.
Your competition gives the fish more than they deposit (usually twice as what they deposit). You are going to give them let's say 90 of what they deposited. That's definitely strategy FTW.

The MC charges are hidden.