Best Hand Touches the Muck

[KenProspero]

I had a similar thing happen to me in a smaller stakes game (I posted about it a month or so ago).

In my situation, it was a friendly game and decidedly low stakes. The player with the better hand did not try to receive his cards and was willing to accept the loss. For a number of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that he was willing to accept his mistake didn't ask for any special care, I offered to, and eventually chopped the pot.

Ruling 1. No one at the table doubted that it was my pot.

Potential Ruling 2. No one was really sure whether it was within the rules to chop or concede the pot at that point. It's really not technically different than one player giving chips to another. In a low stakes game, no one pushed to find out the right answer.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[I see your point but Hero was just trying to be a nice guy to a person that made an honest mistake.

If the cards had not been seen by other players then things would have been different.

And yes I know one player to a hand rule but I don't see this as cheating, just pointing out the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of cardspeak don't you understand? It's only attached if the hand is tabled. He didn't table it, so there's no valid hand to read. Flashing a hand isn't the same as tabling it.

[ QUOTE ]
If the cards had not been seen by other players then things would have been different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't be. It should be the same.

b

[fatshark]

This story sounds familiar, I'm Sitting with 89:
Flop 893, Turn 2, River 3........dammit!
I say,"I have 3 pair!" and table it.
Guy who calls me down shows AA (keeping them in his hand) and then throws them str8 into the muck. The dealer says,"Sir, you had a higher two pair." Dealer pulls the AA out of the muck, kills my hand and awards the pot to Mr. Mucker! And thus the real story on what happened to the Sands! Just kidding, but that really happened. Never played there again.
The hero was a nice guy, but as they say, the nice guy finnishes 2nd in a two horse race. I can't believe they 86'ed the guy after hero said he could have the pot, that is lame also.

[Jack Bando]

[ QUOTE ]
This story sounds familiar, I'm Sitting with 89:
Flop 893, Turn 2, River 3........dammit!
I say,"I have 3 pair!" and table it.
Guy who calls me down shows AA (keeping them in his hand) and then throws them str8 into the muck. The dealer says,"Sir, you had a higher two pair." Dealer pulls the AA out of the muck, kills my hand and awards the pot to Mr. Mucker! And thus the real story on what happened to the Sands! Just kidding, but that really happened. Never played there again.
The hero was a nice guy, but as they say, the nice guy finnishes 2nd in a two horse race. I can't believe they 86'ed the guy after hero said he could have the pot, that is lame also.

[/ QUOTE ]

He wins, he showed the best hand.

They didn't 86'ed the guy, some posters said he should have been for muck digging.

[phish]

In the spirit of fairness, villain should get the hand. I'm assuming that there is absolutely no dispute that those cards were his.

By the way, someone mentioned that he 'folded' his hand. That is not correct. You can only fold when there is still action going on. After all action is complete, cards play and the best hand should get the pot, unless there is some question about whether these are his cards.

Hate to see him lose a pot that is rightfully his due to some technicality.

[fatshark]

[ QUOTE ]

By the way, someone mentioned that he 'folded' his hand. That is not correct. You can only fold when there is still action going on. After all action is complete, cards play and the best hand should get the pot, unless there is some question about whether these are his cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, not to get into a pissing match, but hands can be declared dead after action is complete. I could give many examples of this, but just to humor those who have a false sense of the game:
1)All action is complete and a player in spot 2 mucks his hand hitting the hand of player 9, which is unprotected......dead hand and there was no more action. And as stated, even if you know for sure which cards belonged to which hand....still a dead hand.
2)All action is complete and the player in seat 1 unprotects his hands to table the winning hand and one/both cards fall off the table....dead hand. There were no other cards on the floor, and if you verify the deck, most likely the deck is correct...still a dead hand.
Should I keep going?? Na.
After action is complete you cannot muck? Funny.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
1)All action is complete and a player in spot 2 mucks his hand hitting the hand of player 9, which is unprotected......dead hand and there was no more action. And as stated, even if you know for sure which cards belonged to which hand....still a dead hand.
2)All action is complete and the player in seat 1 unprotects his hands to table the winning hand and one/both cards fall off the table....dead hand. There were no other cards on the floor, and if you verify the deck, most likely the deck is correct...still a dead hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands are fouled. Generally these are going to be ruled live by an experienced floorman. Most places strive to rule in the interest of fairness rather than having a list of ways to "kill" a hand.

[fatshark]

One time in ten years have I seen a Floor declare a hand still live in either of those scenarios, and that was because instead of the one card hitting the floor, it landed in the chair.
It's not that the staff is running around trying to kill hands, it is to make sure players are protecting their hands so that it makes it most difficult for anglers to gain an edge at their property.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
One time in ten years have I seen a Floor declare a hand still live in either of those scenarios, and that was because instead of the one card hitting the floor, it landed in the chair.
It's not that the staff is running around trying to kill hands, it is to make sure players are protecting their hands so that it makes it most difficult for anglers to gain an edge at their property.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am guessing that 10 years was spent in smaller clubs. I have seen these sorts of rulings in small clubs and in the midwest. In larger clubs they emphasize "best hand wins" if it is at all possible. Protecting the players is the most important goal, but the guy that gets drunk and drops his cards is a player that needs protecting also.

[Mason Hellmuth]

I'm replying to several different posts.

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While we are waiting for the floor Hero says what are we waiting for he had the best hand give him the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
A similar situation happened in a live game at a local club tonight, with the exception that the floor wasn't called--the player with the worse hand just conceded the pot. It was refreshing to see a player handle the situation on his own like a gentleman rather than nitting up the game by demanding a ruling, as seems to happen so often in these threads.

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What part of cardspeak don't you understand?

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I believe the name of the rule is "cards speak."

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It's not that the staff is running around trying to kill hands, it is to make sure players are protecting their hands so that it makes it most difficult for anglers to gain an edge at their property.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else think it's amusing when people try to explain cardroom policies to Randy or Rick?