Eugenics

[vhawk01]

FWIW I more or less agree with the pro-eugenics guy. Not that a forced, state-sponsored eugenics program is a good idea, but simply that that is not the only kind of eugenics program one could envision.

I honestly think the technical problems are much more significant. We could support an ethical, moral eugenics program (at least, we could if you aren't a Christian Scientist or a Luddite) but ugh it would be tricky.

[PLOlover]

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Forced sterilization was actually a policy (or at least a legal option often carried out) of many western countries in the early 1900s and I for one would not like to see it return.



done well into the 70's or even 80's 90's for retards in some states in US I'm pretty sure.

I mean, tuskegee was only exposed in what, the sixties?

also hitler got all that eugenics stuff from movement in britain/US.


Err tuskegee was not forced sterilization. And I'm pretty sure it ended in the 60s. There may have been a few cases afterwards, but not nearly as many. The holocaust kind of put people off the whole thing.

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yeah it mostly ended in the 60's.

I just meant it wasn't over in 1901. actually I think it started about then and got rolling in the 20's.

tuskegee goes to ethics, and it was a racial thing which is the basis of eugenics (kill nonwhites and inferior whites, in a nutshell).

[PLOlover]

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FWIW I more or less agree with the pro-eugenics guy. Not that a forced, state-sponsored eugenics program is a good idea, but simply that that is not the only kind of eugenics program one could envision.

I honestly think the technical problems are much more significant. We could support an ethical, moral eugenics program (at least, we could if you aren't a Christian Scientist or a Luddite) but ugh it would be tricky.

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worked out well for the royals, didn't it?

[vhawk01]

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FWIW I more or less agree with the pro-eugenics guy. Not that a forced, state-sponsored eugenics program is a good idea, but simply that that is not the only kind of eugenics program one could envision.

I honestly think the technical problems are much more significant. We could support an ethical, moral eugenics program (at least, we could if you aren't a Christian Scientist or a Luddite) but ugh it would be tricky.

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worked out well for the royals, didn't it?

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Exactly. A much better example than my snake/mongoose/gorilla thing, but I thought mine was funnier. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[lucksack]

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Eugenics could solve the problem that stupid people reproduce more

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Why is that a problem?

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It's a problem, because we live in a democracy (and I don't know good, realistic options to democracy). Which means that the votes and opinions of "stupid people" will start to matter more and more when their amount increases. Politics (and business) is a field where selfish people (including psychopaths) can be successful, and only try to benefit themselves. And their opinions can't be too different from the opinion of the stupid people, or they will not be popular. The stupid people don't care much about future (after their own lifetime). Add corruption, international companies (which decrease the power of politicians) etc. to that, and it really doesn't look like the decisions made by the politicians would consider much else than well-being of the stupid people (including short-term future) while also having to deal with pressure from business world. This means that other things would be ignored more and more. These other things include, but definitely aren't limited to, long-term future of mankind and animals (and also the treatment of animals, which is quite sick now in my opinion).

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while also hopefully increasing people's happiness (by fitting better to modern environment like cities) and making people care more about each other, animals and future generations.

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Yikes! I’m 180º on this one.

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Did you just say you oppose the happiness of people other than you?

[vhawk01]

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Eugenics could solve the problem that stupid people reproduce more

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Why is that a problem?

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It's a problem, because we live in a democracy (and I don't know good, realistic options to democracy). Which means that the votes and opinions of "stupid people" will start to matter more and more when their amount increases. Politics (and business) is a field where selfish people (including psychopaths) can be successful, and only try to benefit themselves. And their opinions can't be too different from the opinion of the stupid people, or they will not be popular. The stupid people don't care much about future (after their own lifetime). Add corruption, international companies (which decrease the power of politicians) etc. to that, and it really doesn't look like the decisions made by the politicians would consider much else than well-being of the stupid people (including short-term future) while also having to deal with pressure from business world. This means that other things would be ignored more and more. These other things include, but definitely aren't limited to, long-term future of mankind and animals (and also the treatment of animals, which is quite sick now in my opinion).

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while also hopefully increasing people's happiness (by fitting better to modern environment like cities) and making people care more about each other, animals and future generations.

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Yikes! I’m 180º on this one.

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Did you just say you oppose the happiness of people other than you?

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The problem with all this is that pretty much everyone now is smarter than anyone a couple thousand years ago. We are all getting smarter, not dumber.

Plus, if you really fear that we ARE getting dumber, our money and time would probably be better spent trying to educate all the dumb people rather than drive them out of existence.

If we somehow develop the technology and knowledge and experience and foresight to enact the plan you seem to be hatching, it would seem to also be possible to just make people smarter without, ya know, forced sterilizations or forced abortions or whatever. Thats MY kind of eugenics program.

[StayHungry]

Some guy said it earlier "the world needs ditch diggers". Capitalism will fail without "stupid people" to put in the elbow grease, and buy the worthless products. I'm sure the mile high futuristic skyscraper you're gonna live in in the future will need pathetic workers to get constructed. You seriously need to rethink you're totally naive attitude to everyone who isn't like you. You write off too many things with simple labels and aren't confronting your real motivations. At the end of the day you are condoning erasure of certain types of people cause you can't transcend your own righteousness.

[StayHungry]

You also seem to not really have an idea of who you want erased, just retards? or people who score below a certain point in IQ tests? just to be safe

[vhawk01]

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Some guy said it earlier "the world needs ditch diggers". Capitalism will fail without "stupid people" to put in the elbow grease, and buy the worthless products. I'm sure the mile high futuristic skyscraper you're gonna live in in the future will need pathetic workers to get constructed. You seriously need to rethink you're totally naive attitude to everyone who isn't like you. You write off too many things with simple labels and aren't confronting your real motivations. At the end of the day you are condoning erasure of certain types of people cause you can't transcend your own righteousness.

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This is an unbelievably heartless, shallow, and honestly, short-sighted attitude. It shows absolutely no compassion. And hey, I'm all for brutally honest statements that show no compassion, but if you are going to be cavalier about the plight of a huge group of other human beings on Earth, wouldnt it also help to be, like, you know, right?

The world most certainly does not need ditch diggers. At least, not if everyone were smart enough to innovate.

EDIT: What I mean to say, of course, is lets just let the Alphas and Betas handle the grunt work amirite?

[lucksack]

vhawk,

I'm not only talking about intelligence, empathy is important too (I don't know how much genes have to do with that though, or how it would be detected well).

What are you basing your claim that we are getting smarter on? How much do you think education affects intelligence? Forced education isn't that easy either..

Also, do you think we are now doing a good job in making the world a good place to live for future generations (and ourselves and animals)? Or near to that? Wouldn't a little help be needed? In my opinion, it is, even if more education helps too.

In addition, eugenics might solve problems other than that (mainly, the fact that we are not well adapted to modern environment, which causes depression etc.).

Edit: I also never said I'd support forced sterilization or abortion.