17 way chop - was it a good decision

[kailua]

If you’re going to enter poorly structured tournaments and chop at seventeen, you might as well skip the tournament…imagine you played….pretend you chopped….. enjoy a movie instead.

When folks pressure you to chop early, just state a price or at which (if any) future point you’ll consider it….end of conversation.

[AngusThermopyle]

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If you’re going to enter poorly structured tournaments and chop at seventeen, you might as well skip the tournament…imagine you played….pretend you chopped….. enjoy a movie instead.



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$25 entry, chopped for $240. What movie you go to pays 10x?

[kailua]

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If you’re going to enter poorly structured tournaments and chop at seventeen, you might as well skip the tournament…imagine you played….pretend you chopped….. enjoy a movie instead.



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$25 entry, chopped for $240. What movie you go to pays 10x?

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give the donk-variance a run over time (while continuing to chop at seventeen) and see if that movie ticket doesn’t begin to look like a pretty good deal

[McMelchior]

Wow, I think all posters so far have ignored the most central issue when it comes to chops in live (low limit) tournaments:

How meaningful is the offered amount?

Since OP is playing a $25 tourney I take it $240 is relatively meaningful to him. If you are capable of taking for instance max $50 out of your monthly budget to play poker (and you don't have a roll) cashing $240 is BIG.

You can't just start up another live tournament when you bust out, and you can't play more than one at a time. Most non-pro players rarely play more than one or two live tourneys per month.

This strongly emphasizes the need to level the variance by making deals; with 5.5BB there's very little skill left, and it's not like doubling up is any guarantee that you'll reach the top 4.

BTW: A $5 vig in a $20 + $5 live tournament is a bargain. I've seen live $15 + $10 tourneys, and happily played $25 + $10 tourneys at Joker's Wild in Henderson. If you want to enjoy the experience of playing live you just have to accept, that the dealer's and TD's salary has to come from somewhere. This is not a computer dealing online with you sitting at home ... there's substantial overhead. Becuase of this nobody right in their minds play low limit live tournaments for profit - but it's a fun experience, and if you can't afford a $200 + $25 tourney there's no reason not to play this.

[KLJ]

demand at least 250

[MicroBob]

mcmelchior - if there's typically an overlay as he states then it's not really even a 20+5. Obviously it's better than that.

I argue that there is more skill to playing these short-stack situations than people realize. Lots of people screw this up and/or fail to take advantage of situations.

I agree with a lot of what nickmpk had to say. You can sit back and let the others drop out.
Everyone here seems so focused on "OMG...you only have 5.5 BB's!!" when really the aspect of "12 out of 17 players have 2 BB's or less" (or whatever it is) is equally if not more important.

You could play a little while longer and let 3 or 4 more players bust-out and then take a chop at 12 players or something if you want.
One conservative way to go about this strategy would be similar to the turbo-super-sat route where you just sit there and wait and maybe only play QQ-AA or whatever.
When it's 1 or 2 hands from being your big-blind then you can consider again whether you want to try to agree to the chop or not.

This chop may actually have been close to correct in some situations.
If everyone else from 5th through 17th has 4.5 BB's and if OP is going to be in the BB on the next hand for example. He would be then be down to 3.5BB's after playing the blinds IF he decides not to go all-in and then would be behind all the other players.

When the blinds are going to go up and by how much is also important to analyze. If the blinds will go up right after they pass him then this could really kill off some of those shorter stacks while he just sits and watches the carnage. If the blinds aren't going up until approximatel when it's his turn to pay them again then he might be wise to chop now...or maybe to try to wait right until that moment that it definitely becomes -EV for him to keep playing.

I mean, there's so much stuff going on in these things and I think a lot of the players don't consider them at all (afterall, the chip-leader agreed to an even chop which tells you something) and I really believe there's a ton that you can take advantage of here.

I've always believes that intelligent deal-making in these things can make up a ton for the crappy vig. In a situation like this you have an opportunity to take a deal when the situation is favorable and to turn it down when you still are looking pretty good.
It doesn't get much better than that.
Oh wait, yes it does. If there's an overlay in the prize-pool on top of it all then it has gotten even better.

[Rottersod]

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You could play a little while longer and let 3 or 4 more players bust-out and then take a chop at 12 players or something if you want.

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The structure for this must be very top heavy with big jumps from 4-3-2-1 if 17 people chopped and all shared 4th place money. I wonder if he wouldn't have to get down to 8 or 9 to really move up the payout significantly?

OP, what was the original payout structure?

[redfisher]

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Meh. I'd want to keep playing, but it sucks being the only holdout to a chop. If you're comfortable with being singled out and having people gun for you, then keep playing - otherwise just chop and get to the cash game.

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I think the cash game point is key. How likely are the remaining tourney players to leave? Will they join cash games with their $240 windfall? What's your cash game edge here?

Getting out of the tournament and into the cash games my very well be your best move here. The chop may not be the best move for the tournament, but the tournament doesn't exist in a vacuum. I occasionally just show up at one particular casino on tournament night because it's the only time they get a 2/5 going. This game is great. I don't even enter the tourney because it's -EV versus being in the cash game as the early bustouts roll through. By the time the tournament is over, most of the easy money has already been scooped up.

[MCS]

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Mathematically I don't think it was too bad - your chance of finishing less than 4th was very high.

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This is not the right way to think about it, because the reward for finishing higher than 4th is significantly more than the penalty for finishing lower than 4th. You can't just estimate his average finishing position and then take the payout for that to determine his EV. The more steep the payouts, the worse this deal becomes.

I would guess it was a bad chop with regard to tournament $EV, but like others have said, there may be other considerations.

[budblown]

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You could play a little while longer and let 3 or 4 more players bust-out and then take a chop at 12 players or something if you want.

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The structure for this must be very top heavy with big jumps from 4-3-2-1 if 17 people chopped and all shared 4th place money. I wonder if he wouldn't have to get down to 8 or 9 to really move up the payout significantly?

OP, what was the original payout structure?

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I don't know the exact structure but I do know what the payments were for the 3 people that were eliminated. To get over $100 I would have had to atleast get 8th if I remember correctly -
20- $27
19 - $35
18 - $45