Follow up... similar hand

SomethingClever · #1 05-20-2007, 05:03 PM

This came from a hand I posted where I called thinking I was beat and wondering if I should trust my reads more. Jigsaws posted the following, saying that this flop should be a big shove/3bet.

Below I've posted a similar hand that I just played and I'm wondering if I should 3bet the flop, call, or fold.

ORIGINAL HAND:

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's most likely you're playing scared and weak-tight because you've been running bad. So, let me ask you, what would you put villain on in this hand (he's basically unknown - 26/13/1 over like 40 hands), and what's your action?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $214.35
Hero (BB): $246.10
UTG: $377.25
BTN: $169.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
UTG folds, BTN raises to $4.00, SB folds, Hero raises to $16.00, BTN calls $12.00

Flop: ($33) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $26.00, BTN raises to $52.00

[/ QUOTE ]

SIMILAR HAND: Assume villain has same stats as your hand.

WSEX - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - .5/1 Blinds -

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, BTN calls, Hero raises to $5.00, BB calls $4, UTG folds.

Flop: ($11) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $7.00, BTN raises to $15.00....

orange · #2 05-20-2007, 05:07 PM

dont fold. your flop bet is pretty weak too.

Jigsaws · #3 05-20-2007, 05:34 PM

100BB stacks? Stacks were slightly smaller in the hand I posted. This hand is also different since it's not a reraised pot and because BTN open limped rather than raised. The flop texture is also subtly different: there are two OESDs (QJ/98) instead of one (87) and there's also a likely two pair (KT).

I would definitely consider folding sometimes in this hand, though I'm never folding the flop to this raise. If I think he's a big monkey I'll 3bet the flop.

I'll often call and lead almost any turn, even those that complete draws. On a blank turn, this kind of guy usually isn't aggro enough to shove on you with draws or worse hands (Kx/Tx), but he might call down with both. If he just calls and the river blanks I probably check-call to let him shove missed draws.

On a turn that completes a draw, he might freeze and just call with better hands, allowing you some measure of pot control. You can then usually check-fold the river if he just calls.

Vs. a more aggro 2+2 type guy I'd CRAI on the turn, but I think this guy checks back a lot.

SomethingClever · #4 05-20-2007, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
100BB stacks? Stacks were slightly smaller in the hand I posted. This hand is also different since it's not a reraised pot and because BTN open limped rather than raised. The flop texture is also subtly different: there are two OESDs (QJ/98) instead of one (87) and there's also a likely two pair (KT).

I would definitely consider folding sometimes in this hand, though I'm never folding the flop to this raise. If I think he's a big monkey I'll 3bet the flop.

I'll often call and lead almost any turn, even those that complete draws. On a blank turn, this kind of guy usually isn't aggro enough to shove on you with draws or worse hands (Kx/Tx), but he might call down with both. If he just calls and the river blanks I probably check-call to let him shove missed draws.

On a turn that completes a draw, he might freeze and just call with better hands, allowing you some measure of pot control. You can then usually check-fold the river if he just calls.

Vs. a more aggro 2+2 type guy I'd CRAI on the turn, but I think this guy checks back a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

100 bb stacks, yes. Also I mistyped... Button folded. It was the BB who raised the flop. I am the SB so the action is in order.

I called his raise. Turn came Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I checked and he shoved for $80.

So you would have led the turn... and folded to a push? Or called?

Jigsaws · #5 05-20-2007, 06:32 PM

I would've bet-folded on this turn, yeah.

I'd fold now too. This is more often a good made hand that's scared of a draw than a draw from this type of guy, in my experience.

SomethingClever · #6 05-20-2007, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is more often a good made hand that's scared of a draw than a draw from this type of guy, in my experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you using the information that he shoved the turn to come to this conclusion? Because I don't think the hands are different enough based on only preflop and flop.

Just explain to me why you prefer calling this flop, and 3-betting the other one. Is it because the pot is smaller? Is it because there is a more likely two pair and possible straight draws?

The former seems somewhat reasonable, I suppose. The latter seems thin.

Jigsaws · #7 05-20-2007, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you using the information that he shoved the turn to come to this conclusion?

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Yeah, I called the flop so I could let the turn action define his hand better, rather than committing myself on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Just explain to me why you prefer calling this flop, and 3-betting the other one. Is it because the pot is smaller? Is it because there is a more likely two pair and possible straight draws?

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Mostly because the pot is smaller. In my hand I can shove, and it'll be only $100 more to him in a $230 pot or so. It's really tough for him to get away from any sort of hand getting that price. However, if you 3bet the flop, he knows he has to play for stacks in a smallish pot. That allows him to get away from Kx/Tx hands, maybe fold some draws and shove 2p+ and combo draws. Then you're getting a sick price (if you 3bet to $45 or so), but you'll hate it when he shoves.