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#31
10-10-2007, 07:50 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
[ QUOTE ]
"Nope, none of that counts, but you'll be happy to know that there is this entity that set you up in this scenario, knows how it's going to turn out oh, and he loves you, but not in a stalker/kidnapper sort of way ...and there you have it, now you have meaning." [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps we can approach this in a differnt manner. Do you believe that there is such a thing as "love"? It has been described in various manner by many but really never satisfactorily to all. I believe that is because "love" is a personal thing and there is no tangible way to measure it or its strength. Well if you believe in love and I do. I feel that I've experienced it through my family but I'd rather not get into a discussion of just what love is or isn't. I just want to get an understanding that we are on the same page. If you do not believe in "love" nor have you ever experienced it you may not understand the power of love. A parent would definetly understand love with regards to his/her child and he/she would understand how that love alone would add meaning or give meaning to their love. If that same parent then turned towards a God and believed that God's love for him was the same as the love that he/she felt for their own child it might add or give meaning to their own life just to know that they too are loved. If you ask a parent why they brought a child into this world they too may not be able to give a definitve answer. So, why would you expect God to give one also. They key to this whole dicussion is the way in which one views "love" and its power. pokervintage. 
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#32
10-10-2007, 07:57 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
You may be looking for someone to defend this classic statement:
"Without a belief in God [and that he loves you], a person cannot find real meaning in life." If so, I'm not surprised. It haunts this forum.
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#33
10-10-2007, 08:21 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
[ QUOTE ]
If you believe that believing that your are plaything of a powerful being gives your life meaning then it does. If someone says belief in God gives there life meaning, then the only way it doesn’t is if they are lying. [/ QUOTE ] Not if the fact that your belief in god giving your life meaning depends on your belief being true, and it's false.
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#34
10-10-2007, 08:39 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
Splendour, maybe not all christians I have met worship the cross but I'd say around most of them (counting only those who pay more than lip service and are religious more than one day a week) worship the bible, I I mean they _worship_ it. For many I think the bible means more to them than god does, and others seem to worship their churches. Look at the TV evangelists, it would seem many people are more into following them than they are about following god.
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#35
10-10-2007, 09:28 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
[ QUOTE ]
"Its a great method of social control as well as it gives people structure. I suspect we can all agree that structure and goals make our lives better. Religion fills in those blanks. It fills in the void for those looking for meaning." Can't help but think Lenin, Stalin and Hitler would be the first to agree with you here...If you stamp out Churches you can create a vacuum of power and just about anything could fill it...This is sort of similar to a coup d'etat... [/ QUOTE ] Really, honestly?? You're just going to throw a bunch of bad names by his quote to invalidate it?? That's your come back?? Wow, I mean, don't bother trying or anything...
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#36
10-10-2007, 09:34 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
You hit it spot on in your OP and responses...
God loving you ensures not only a better future and wonderful eternity, but it also means that there was in fact a reason for all the badness you've gone through, because that badness was part of some plan to make life (and afterlife) better for you (since he loves you). The "meaning" comes from knowing that this master plan exists and that it exists for you.
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#37
10-10-2007, 09:36 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning. I agree. A lot of your sociopaths seem to exhibit disconnects from people/animals. Showing emotional support or love has always been integral to building individuals and character. Hitler and Stalin and Jesus were all treated harshly by their fathers. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] QFMFT
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#38
10-10-2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
First an aside - I dont accept the claim and dont think it is inherent in theism.
Nonetheless, I think the confusion comes from using meaning in two different contexts - meaning to you and "ultimate meaning" which is important to theists but nonexistent to most atheists. Irrespective of our position on the theism-atheism debate - we all create meaning for ourselves and our lives have some meaning by virtue of that. The point I think the meaning-loving theists are making is that if God exists he also creates meaning. This God-mandated meaning is what they refer to as the ultimate meaning and what they regard as significant on a cosmic scale. Their claim is that, all the atheists have is the subjective self-designated meaning. Theists have that, but also have the ability to work within god's plan and be a part of something bigger than them - to have their lives viewed as important by someone (ie God) who defines that overarching, cosmically significant meaning. An analogy that comes to mind is the meaning you get from reading a work of prose. You will read it and find meaning, I will find different meaning. The author intended their own meaning. The theist making the meaning argument you refer to would claim that atheism corresponds to a belief that the words are randomly selected and jumbled all over the page with no rhyme or reason - we then comb through and find our own meaning out of what words, phrases or sentnce fragments we find. The theist conception is that the words were chosen carefully by an intelligence who wanted to convey something. We still comb through, making our own meaning - but we have the possibility that we can discern the "true, intended" meaning, which is something extra on top of our insignificant, self-derived meaning.
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#39
10-10-2007, 10:25 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
[ QUOTE ]
Theists have that, but also have the ability to work within god's plan and be a part of something bigger than them - to have their lives viewed as important by someone (ie God) who defines that overarching, cosmically significant meaning. [/ QUOTE ] I tried to address that by stating versions of - Finding out you are a galley slave in the largest ship captained by the most powerful king in history does not add meaning to your life, it's de-meaning. That he loves you and will even save the odd red-headed girl in the school bus crash is merely his plan, his goals. Sure, you can agree to keep pulling on the oars at his direction but that seems like a pretty weird version of 'meaning'. It also dodges the issue completely. People can get meaning out of a love for sausages, so we can't say god adds meaning by what we actually add by buying into his plot. That meaning then came from us ( as all meaning does) not from his. A theist has to tell me HOW god imbues me with meaning by the mere fact that he loves me and has a major plot in mind with me in it. NOT by my reaction it ( else it's coming from me, as usual). thanks for trying but no cigar, luckyme
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#40
10-10-2007, 10:42 PM
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Re: The Myth of Meaning
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Theists have that, but also have the ability to work within god's plan and be a part of something bigger than them - to have their lives viewed as important by someone (ie God) who defines that overarching, cosmically significant meaning. [/ QUOTE ] I tried to address that by stating versions of - Finding out you are a galley slave in the largest ship captained by the most powerful king in history does not add meaning to your life, it's de-meaning. That he loves you and will even save the odd red-headed girl in the school bus crash is merely his plan, his goals. Sure, you can agree to keep pulling on the oars at his direction but that seems like a pretty weird version of 'meaning'. It also dodges the issue completely. People can get meaning out of a love for sausages, so we can't say god adds meaning by what we actually add by buying into his plot. That meaning then came from us ( as all meaning does) not from his. A theist has to tell me HOW god imbues me with meaning by the mere fact that he loves me and has a major plot in mind with me in it. NOT by my reaction it ( else it's coming from me, as usual). thanks for trying but no cigar, luckyme [/ QUOTE ] I clearly didnt explain very well. I dont think the claim is that the meaning you ascribe to your life is increased by believing in god. I think the claim is that the total amount of meaning is increased (which they value and you may not). In other words, there's the same amount of subjective meaning ascribed by atheists and theists, but if theists are right then there is another source of meaning - namely that ascribed by god. This meaning ascribed by god is what they refer to as absolute meaning (the claim being it is present if god exists, but there is no analogous source of meaning if he doesnt - just subjectively ascribed-by-us meaning).
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