Back to limit, sanity check plz

UATrewqaz · #1 08-05-2006, 01:39 PM

After playing nothing but NL25 for the past 3 months (around 25K hands, finished up like $300, pretty sad, yet I digress) I have returned to limit. Not only do I enjoy limit more but I'm also better at it.

So fresh off a rereading of SSHE I dive in to clear a saved Paradise bonus.

Here are a few hands that came up and I wanted to see your opinions of them.

H1. (MP3 was a maniac)

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, MP3 caps, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 caps, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (20.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (25.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: 25.25 BB

H2.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (17.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

H3.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: (17.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

riverdeuce · #2 08-05-2006, 02:03 PM

Sweet table.

HouseCalls · #3 08-05-2006, 02:12 PM

H1 - usually fold or raise PF but cold call with AQs ok. Otherwise fine

H2 - Just call turn against this many opponents. Semi-bluffing here is ok HU but into 5 I just call

H3 - nh

Good to have you back.
My own NL25 experiment was much shorter and cost me about $50 but I reached the same conclusion you did [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Buzz-cp · #4 08-05-2006, 02:21 PM

hand 1: I just call the flop bet. there is no reason for bloating the pot when this is wa/wb.

hand 2: I think i bet this flop, not sure I like the turn c/r

hand 3: looks a bit passive on the turn, but I think I play it the same.

also welcome back to picking up the quarters [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Buzz

ps - were you OOT exiled?

UATrewqaz · #5 08-05-2006, 02:34 PM

Yeah the exiled thing comes from OOT.

As for my turn check raise in hand 2, it was more for value than for anythign. I figured I had a gutshot and my flush outs were almost certainly good, therefor my pot equity was pretty sweet.

NIX · #6 08-05-2006, 02:31 PM

Hands 1 and 3 are how I would play them.

Hand 2, I would probably check/raise the flop, not the turn.

Thrakkar · #7 08-05-2006, 02:42 PM

Welcome back to LHE!!!

Now to your hands:

H1.
3-bet preflop and try to get it HU.
The rest looks OK to me.

H2.
You MUST check-raise the flop. You have a 2nd nut flush draw and 4 people called already!
Turn raise is OK: you have 9 outs to the flush and 2 outs to the str8 (9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] might give someone a flush). 11 outs on the turn means you'll win 24% of the times. With 4 callers the raise is +EV.

H3.
I don't like the raise PF, because against at least 6 callers I find AJo too weak. You bloat the pot and reduce your chances to protect your hand against draws later on.
I don't like your raise on the flop either: You don't protect your hand here (you lay 19:2) and I wouldn't regard that as a value raise since a str8 might be out already, there's also a flush draw and a K or Q will almost certainly beat you. There's also a good possibility that someone limped with a pocket pair of 88 or 77 and hit a set. You MIGHT raise for information, but even that is tainted, because the reraise might come from a flush draw (that you still beat right now). If that raise was for information, why don't you fold to the reraise or after the turn bet???
I'd fold to the river bet at the latest: He got 2 callers on his turn bet. Do you think he's bluffing on the river? Sure it's "only" 1 BB in a 18BB pot, but I would save that money.

End of check! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

NIX · #8 08-05-2006, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
H3.
I don't like the raise PF, because against at least 6 callers I find AJo too weak. You bloat the pot and reduce your chances to protect your hand against draws later on.
I don't like your raise on the flop either: You don't protect your hand here (you lay 19:2) and I wouldn't regard that as a value raise since a str8 might be out already, there's also a flush draw and a K or Q will almost certainly beat you. There's also a good possibility that someone limped with a pocket pair of 88 or 77 and hit a set. You MIGHT raise for information, but even that is tainted, because the reraise might come from a flush draw (that you still beat right now). If that raise was for information, why don't you fold to the reraise or after the turn bet???
I'd fold to the river bet at the latest: He got 2 callers on his turn bet. Do you think he's bluffing on the river? Sure it's "only" 1 BB in a 18BB pot, but I would save that money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because no one else raised is he reason I would raise AJ here since chances are you aren't dominated by anything here. I'd be raising AQ in the same spot here as well, even though that comes with all the drawbacks you've mentioned.

On the flop, I like the raise for a few reasons. First, while it is hard to protect our hand, we can give villians the chance to fold when they shouldn't. If we can convince someone to fold an overcard, gutshot, or a 7 or an 8, I'm happy. Second, if let everyone stay in the pot, practically any turn card that isn't less than a 7 is ugly. I like defining our hand as strong now so that if one of the boatload of scare cards hit, we can get a better idea as to what people have or are representing.

As for there being a "good possibility" someone limped 88 or 77 and made a set, that's just playing scared now.

Finally, I think calling the river heads up getting over 18:1 is a must. It may not happen often, but we can pick off an overplayed AJ, KJ, JT, 99, or perhaps a missed flush draw 5% of the time.

Scary_Tiger · #9 08-05-2006, 03:20 PM

Hand 1, fine.

Hand 2, you HAVE to c/r the flop here. The turn c/r is mediocre because sometimes you won't get enough callers. I would just call but whatever. Your gutshot isn't worth that much.

Hand 3, cap the flop.

Xhad · #10 08-05-2006, 03:28 PM

Hand 1 looks ok. I don't think you're good that often but OMG POT SO HUGE.

Hand 2 c/r the FLOP, not the TURN.

Hand 3 I don't raise preflop, as I'd rather be able to raise postflop more often when I hit a pair.