How do I break the cycle?

creamfillin · #1 03-03-2007, 08:11 AM

I deposited about 50$ on stars last week. Played some NL5 & NL10, trying to build up a roll, go on a streak and almost work the 50 up to a 100. Then I hit a few landmines and I'm back where I started. I win a buyin.. lose a buyin.. whether it be a bad beat or just a stupid play it seems like I can't make any ground. Everyday I'll sit and play for a couple of hours and grind out 10 dollars, then i'll play again later on in the day hoping to make more and lose it all back. It's making me paranoid when i'm winning at a table, how long is it going to take before I lose it all back again.

I try to improve my game whenever I can - I post hands, study other hands, read articles, but I'm not seeing any results. Is this running bad? Or does my game have serious leaks? Am I not pacing myself or something? Arg.

swingdoc · #2 03-03-2007, 09:43 AM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=11#Post9092592

lucky_mf · #3 03-03-2007, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I deposited about 50$ on stars last week. Played some NL5 & NL10, trying to build up a roll, go on a streak and almost work the 50 up to a 100. Then I hit a few landmines and I'm back where I started. I win a buyin.. lose a buyin.. whether it be a bad beat or just a stupid play it seems like I can't make any ground. Everyday I'll sit and play for a couple of hours and grind out 10 dollars, then i'll play again later on in the day hoping to make more and lose it all back. It's making me paranoid when i'm winning at a table, how long is it going to take before I lose it all back again.

I try to improve my game whenever I can - I post hands, study other hands, read articles, but I'm not seeing any results. Is this running bad? Or does my game have serious leaks? Am I not pacing myself or something? Arg.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably have some big leaks you don't even know about. Go back and look at the hands that set you back and see if you can identify mistakes. You also might be making a lot of mistakes in hands where you are not losing a lot of money (calling out of position with marginal hands or missing value bets for instance).

One thing that I would suggest is not to be so results oriented. What I used to do is try to play a fixed # of hands (100 hands) of poker with the intent of playing my best poker, irrespective of results. Also, most people learn to break even before they learn to win. One other point - with $50 you are underrolled for both NL10 and NL5 by traditional bankroll guidelines (20+ buy-ins). If you are good you can throw these guidlines out the window IMO. The problem is that your not good. Playing lower will allow you to play longer (and learn more potentially) before you go busto.

Lucky

SinOrSwim · #4 03-03-2007, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's making me paranoid when i'm winning at a table, how long is it going to take before I lose it all back again.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are worried about losing you will play scared and that will ultimately cause you to lose more money. You can't worry about it. I still have that problem which is why I play more SnG's vs. cash. I know how much I will possibly lose. I get to see more hands for a cheap price. Still learning. Plus, I play for entertainment and have no illusions or desire to be a "pro". Figure out why you want to play. Enjoyment or are you trying to make money to live on/pay bills. This will make a big difference whether you play scared/timid or not as well.

phydaux · #5 03-04-2007, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I deposited about 50$ on stars last week. Played some NL5 & NL10

[/ QUOTE ]

There's your answer.

$50.00 is much too small a roll for 10NL. Deposit $100.00 and play 5NL. Play ABC tight/aggressive poker. You'll grow your roll.

For the record, I'm in the exact same boat, grinding uNL ring games on Stars.

doublerc33 · #6 03-04-2007, 05:25 AM

You may want to try scaling back your amount of play. Sometimes playing too much may become a detriment to your game. I've found that I play much better and win more when i'm well rested, in a decent mood, and in a poker mindstate. I have been guilty of playing endless hours while tired or distracted, and I've suffered numerous "hits" while in this state. So remember, having your mind and body prepared for playing is just as important as your actual poker skill.

I would also do a little bit of reading; This will help you better understand areas where you are making mistakes. Some of these books have helped me:

"The Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky
"Phil Gordon's Little Green Book" by Phil Gordon
"Killer Poker Online" John Vorhaus
"Small Stakes Holdem" Sklansky/Miller/Malmuth

Also read the 2+2 beginner section as much as possible and check out these links:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...&PHPSESSID=

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...&PHPSESSID=

Read about all of the different levels here:
http://www.pokertips.org/strategy/strategy.php

creamfillin · #7 03-04-2007, 06:44 AM

Thanks for the advice guys.. I think I'm already seeing positive results.

Tjorriemorrie · #8 03-05-2007, 03:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I deposited about 50$ on stars last week. Played some NL5 & NL10

[/ QUOTE ]

There's your answer.

$50.00 is much too small a roll for 10NL. Deposit $100.00 and play 5NL. Play ABC tight/aggressive poker. You'll grow your roll.

For the record, I'm in the exact same boat, grinding uNL ring games on Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]Same here

First of all your bankroll is way out. don't play 10NL till you got 200. And you need at least 80 for 5NL, but 50 isn't too low imo.
Secondly, play ABC poker. If you're new I highly recommend performpoker . It really helped me when i started and you'll never end a session in red (if you put in 2hours at least). Considering it sounds like you break even, there's nothing to lose in trying it.

Splossy · #9 03-05-2007, 08:07 AM

As a beginner at NL I'd guess that the following advice would be pertinent. It certainly was/is for me:

1. Don't call large river bets without being confident you have the best hand.
2. When top pair comes under major pressure you are probably beaten.
3. Assume people are not bluffing unless you have a very good reason to think so.

It all amounts to the same thing - if you find yourself having to put a lot of money into a pot think VERY hard before you do. In my (limited) experience this is what causes those big losses after hours of valient grinding. It might not be optimal but it's often better to fold in marginal but expensive situations and wait for better ones.

lucky_mf · #10 03-05-2007, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As a beginner at NL I'd guess that the following advice would be pertinent. It certainly was/is for me:

1. Don't call large river bets without being confident you have the best hand.
2. When top pair comes under major pressure you are probably beaten.
3. Assume people are not bluffing unless you have a very good reason to think so.

It all amounts to the same thing - if you find yourself having to put a lot of money into a pot think VERY hard before you do. In my (limited) experience this is what causes those big losses after hours of valient grinding. It might not be optimal but it's often better to fold in marginal but expensive situations and wait for better ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what goes on at NL5 and NL10, but the aggresiveness from the HSNLH games has filtered down to 5/10, 3/6, 2/4, and even 1/2. Some of these games have gotten crazy aggresive with lots of raising and re-raising preflop (often with not very good hands). Some of these clichés like "don't go broke with top pair" or "don't call a big river bet without (near) nuts" are no longer applicable.

Example:

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $871.05
CO: $1033.40
Button: $348.50
SB: $1196.25
Hero: $400

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG raises to $12, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($26, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $16, Hero raises to $45, UTG calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($116, 2 players)
Hero bets $100, UTG raises to $400, Hero calls all-in $243.
Uncalled bets: $57 returned to UTG.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($802, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $802)

Results:
Final pot: $802 - Villain showed 55

Another:

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $408
UTG+1: $814.80
Hero: $984.78
Button: $195.80
SB: $148
BB: $883.26

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises to $16, Button folds, SB raises to $144, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($292, 2 players)
SB is all-in $4, Hero calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($300, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $300)

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($300, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $300)

Results:
Final pot: $300 - Villian showed A9s