How do I break the cycle?

[Splossy]

I dunno what goes on a at 2/4 but at 10NL I think it's useful rule-of-thumb advice. I don't see how one can say that avoiding going broke with top pair isn't good advice for a new NL player, since it's one of the most common newbie errors.

I'm not sure what those hands prove. Are you suggesting a new 10NL player routinely calls AI on the turn on the off-chance some nut is playing middle pair? If one has reads etc then clearly all rules of thumb are moot. But I contest that it's quite possible to build a bankroll at a decent rate at the micros by just playing ABC poker and not getting involved in expensive marginal situations without decent reads. I call bets with TP all the time but that is when I have a reason to believe I'm winning.

I'm amazed anyone at 2/4 would play that badly. The SB the 2nd hand raised PF leaving himself $4! I really don't think examples of idiots makes for good general advice.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno what goes on a at 2/4 but at 10NL I think it's useful rule-of-thumb advice. I don't see how one can say that avoiding going broke with top pair isn't good advice for a new NL player, since it's one of the most common newbie errors.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 100bb stacks and AK on a Axx flop in a HU raised pot - you should usually be willing to go broke - unless your such an open book (by virtue of an extremely narrow raising range) that its obvious to your opponent that you have AA, AK, AQ, ect. If you are aggresive (so people discount your holdings) it is very likely that you will see a weaker ace in these situations.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what those hands prove. Are you suggesting a new 10NL player routinely calls AI on the turn on the off-chance some nut is playing middle pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not suggesting this at all - I don't routinely call these all-ins. From my perspective though over-folding is potentially a big leak - the he must have the nuts syndrome. What does a thinking aggresive player do if they know someone won't call big river bets without two pair or more? They big bet bluff on the river and steal the pot. This might be moot for NL10 because there are not many thinking aggresive players?

[ QUOTE ]
If one has reads etc then clearly all rules of thumb are moot. But I contest that it's quite possible to build a bankroll at a decent rate at the micros by just playing ABC poker and not getting involved in expensive marginal situations without decent reads. I call bets with TP all the time but that is when I have a reason to believe I'm winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree it is possible to build a bankroll with ABC poker at small stakes. That said - if you adopt a more aggressive style (which wins more $) people will start to do crazy stuff to you and you have to be able to adjust (make reads). Good poker is all about reads and finding things that your opponents do that are exploitable (mainly overcalling or over-folding).

[ QUOTE ]
I'm amazed anyone at 2/4 would play that badly. The SB the 2nd hand raised PF leaving himself $4! I really don't think examples of idiots makes for good general advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was effectively all in (the $4 made no difference). This kind of stuff happens all the time (all hands are from yesterday). As I indicated when you are aggressive people will play with you a lot. They also start to crack under the pressure that you put on them and make huge mistakes.

Another hand from yesterday an opponent cracked:

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3./$6.
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $106.60
UTG+1: $407.20
CO: $1022.40
Button: $660
SB: $594
Hero: $569.55

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $27</font>, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($90, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $72</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $306</font>, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $633</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $542.55</font>.
Uncalled bets: $542.55 returned to Hero.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($1029, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1356)


River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1029, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1356)


Results: - CO showed AQ - no pair (only the ace was a diamond)
Final pot: $1029

[Splossy]

Man I need to move up by the look of it! I was under the impression that SSNL was full of thinking TAGs.

The advice about avoiding going broke with top pair is commonly given because most newbies (myself included) tend to fall in love with their pair and willfully ignore all the signs of being beaten later in the hand - when the flush card hits a player who looks to be playing a draw etc. Maybe "don't fall in love with your top pair" would be more accurate - "Baluga Theorum" threads cover it pretty well. Anyway, I'm not experienced enough to argue it well . Personally it was one piece of advice I found very useful in curtailing the number of idiot calls I make.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe "don't fall in love with your top pair" would be more accurate

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes! Or even your sets for that matter. If its an obviously drawy board you have to be able to to figure out what the most likely draws are and take exreme caution when they complete.

Example:

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $1275.40
CO: $1400.60
Button: $333.10
SB: $686.60
BB: $983.50

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $17</font>, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($36, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $29</font>, BB calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($94, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($94, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $44</font>, Hero calls.

Results: - Villain shows an Ace high flush.
Final pot: $182



IMO - There are some good players at 100NL and probably NL50.

[Oberonn]

There is some decent advice in this thread but you should ignore the bankroll nits. Until you are a proven winning player at whatever level you choose to play you do not have a bankroll, you have a budget.

You are getting an education and you should strive to pay as little as possible for that education. Work the 5NL and/or 10NL with the intent of putting in hands to gain experience and insight.

Reading books and forum postings can only take you so far, you must put in the time playing the game.

Also, it is very important to think about what you read and experience playing the game.

Good luck.