mlg is aggressive, right?

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
btw this really is a fold but in reality it isnt necessarily cause it's mlg.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah that's kind of where i was going with that ramble

is it bad to raise the flop here?

[registrar]

I'd raise the flop (so perhaps assume it's bad.)

[NoahSD]

IMHO, the flop's a really subtle spot. Either play is totally fine, but if MLG thinks you're likely to bluff in this spot, then raising is really awful. If he thinks you're unlikely to bluff here, not raising is really awful.

Stack sizes should be a really big consideration when deciding which play to make here. I think when in doubt, calling is better here due to stack sizes.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, the flop's a really subtle spot. Either play is totally fine, but if MLG thinks you're likely to bluff in this spot, then raising is really awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? If he's likely to rebluff, he may actually have a worse hand, and we're far more likely to have all 15 outs if he thinks we're likely to bluff and rebluff. So we call and take a chance to knock out a very tough player and have a huge stack early.

[Ansky]

word nath

I'd consider it a good thing if MLG 3 bet on a bluff a lot here.

[NoahSD]

Right.. I'm stupid.

[MLG]

funkii,
odd as it seems you have my iso range kinda wrong, its too slim in that there are way more hands that im willing to iso raise with, but at the same time im pretty likely to limp the lower end of the range you listed. Although to be fairm, thats because the stacks behind me were all pretty deep. So like, Im often gonna limp behind with KQ, but i'll pop JTs kind of a thing.

whoever said it,
i am certainly willing to v-bet AA on the turn although im almost always checking AQ/KQ/TT

locutus,
odd as it is i think i get what you're trying to say...which is that my small turn bet keeps my range super wide and weak including many draws. therefore you've decided you're calling me down no matter what. therefore given that i have many drawing hands, and you will feel the need to call on the river no matter what given that you think i can 3-bet often, you think raising now to protect your hand when you're ahead is better than waiting till the river when i will be deciding how often the money goes in. do i have that right?

ansky/noah,
i am not going to 3-bet air very often on that flop, pretty much any 3-bet i make will either be super strong or a hand which i think has many outs.

[locutus2002]

[ QUOTE ]
locutus,
odd as it is i think i get what you're trying to say...which is that my small turn bet keeps my range super wide and weak including many draws. therefore you've decided you're calling me down no matter what. therefore given that i have many drawing hands, and you will feel the need to call on the river no matter what given that you think i can 3-bet often, you think raising now to protect your hand when you're ahead is better than waiting till the river when i will be deciding how often the money goes in. do i have that right?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically what I meant, except I don't want to "protect" my hand when I'm ahead, but rather get paid by drawing hands while they still have a draw. Consider TT which might pay on the turn but fold on the river. Because of the overlay and size of the pot both sides should be willing to make an EV- call with about 11 outs or so. Also it's very real for MLG to fold the river if a club comes in the cases where he doesn't hav the nuts.

[adanthar]

that is a very bad board to make a heroic call on, even vs. mlg, when mlg just got caught floating with crap a few minutes ago. although of course that changes a bit if he knows your SN.

also fwiw, I raise the flop because when MLG 'shoves with outs' you have most of those hands crushed.

[MLG]

ad,
i knew who he was, we had chatted a little. also i didnt particularly get caught floating with crap. i raised preflop and called a half pot donkbet from the SB with KJ on a Q93 flop. just notable in that it doesnt eally change the dynamics all that much. as for raising the flop, and getting me to "shove with outs" he has me a little crippled since i cant have the nut flush draw or KcQc type hands which makes it tricky.

generally though, i think raising the flop v me is close to mandatory.