Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr - Page 4

vixticator · #31 11-29-2007, 08:30 PM

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Hand 1: call. you can always call a 2nd barrel or fold to a turn bet. I don't think you're folding a queen to often.

Hand 2: you have the nuts here. Why are you trying to get him to fold. call the flop and raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]1. I don't want to call a turn bet and be a station with second pair or bluff(??) raise the turn with a showdownable hand. Once people lead into a raise they do not tend to stop betting. I prefer to win before showdown because I'm stealing a lot of small pots in general. I realize this is opposite of most microstakes players, just the style I prefer. I'm not raising here for a cheap showdown, it's for value. I think my hand is better than his range that leads (I realize his CALLING range probably has me in bad shape) but I don't mind a call and re-evaluating later streets. And I want initiative. If I were stronger, calling is still bad because I want value.

2. Because I raise a lot of garbage I raise a lot of good hands too, since these are more likely to be shown down it helps image. Also, shortstacks rarely lead and fold with anything except air. I miss value by raising if they have air, but whatever.

Paul Thomson · #32 11-29-2007, 08:46 PM

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Hand 1: call. you can always call a 2nd barrel or fold to a turn bet. I don't think you're folding a queen to often.

Hand 2: you have the nuts here. Why are you trying to get him to fold. call the flop and raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]1. I don't want to call a turn bet and be a station with second pair or bluff(??) raise the turn with a showdownable hand. Once people lead into a raise they do not tend to stop betting. I prefer to win before showdown because I'm stealing a lot of small pots in general. I realize this is opposite of most microstakes players, just the style I prefer. I'm not raising here for a cheap showdown, it's for value. I think my hand is better than his range that leads (I realize his CALLING range probably has me in bad shape) so I don't mind a call and re-evaluating later streets. And I want initiative. If I were stronger, calling is still bad because I want value.

2. Because I raise a lot of garbage I raise a lot of good hands too, since these are more likely to be shown down it helps image. Also, shortstacks rarely lead and fold with anything except air. I miss value by raising if they have air, but whatever.

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1) ok. So let's get this straight. you're raising in the first hand for value. Now you say that it's for value because "my hand is better than the range that he leads for...but i understand that my hand is in bad shape to his calling range". Now you're right that it's in bad shape to his calling range, but more importantly is there even a single hand that he calls your flop raise that is worse than yours? If the answer is "no", then your raise is not for value it's a bluff.

And hten you go on to say that you want to gain initiave. Now let's think about this. Your hand is ahead of the Villain's range...so don't you want him to continue betting his weaker hands? You don't want to take the initiave away from him if he's better worse hands.

2)you say you need to raise in order to balance your image. This is true, but not in this particular case. Since the Villain is short stack and not a regular.

And as far as saying that "short stacks rarely lead and fold". who cares. if they're not folding the flop, they're not folding the turn. so raising once again serves no purpose. you want them to continue with air.

I'm not trying to be a dick. But more or less, in your post you said that you should raise donk bets for FE and for value--and unless you have some sort of ae jones merging going on, then this makes little sense.

I agree that you should raise donk bets alot. But you should do it with air and your strong hands that are somewhat vulnerable or when the stacks are deep and u want to be building a big pot.

vixticator · #33 11-29-2007, 09:02 PM

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1) ok. So let's get this straight. you're raising in the first hand for value. Now you say that it's for value because "my hand is better than the range that he leads for...but i understand that my hand is in bad shape to his calling range". Now you're right that it's in bad shape to his calling range, but more importantly is there even a single hand that he calls your flop raise that is worse than yours? If the answer is "no", then your raise is not for value it's a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]By bad shape I mean not as good shape, I think he leads with 22+, Tx+, Qx+ maybe some kind of nothing hand. How often they continue with anything worse than Qx on the turn, I have no idea. IMO some worse hands can call. I'd have to look at this villains stats, there is some possibility they call with most of the lead range. I don't think a Ten folds out just yet, and very rarely any Queen. But I think a weak tag will fold Qx sometimes facing a raise and turn bet.

When they call I do not know where I stand, correct. This exact hand doesn't really fall into what I meant to talk about, I prefer to have air or a gutshot here. I'm not meaning to talk about how to play second pair in this spot which is kind of what is happening. I don't always raise here obv.

I picked a terrible example to illustrate my original point, lol.

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I agree that you should raise donk bets alot. But you should do it with air and your strong hands that are somewhat vulnerable or when the stacks are deep and u want to be building a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, that was my intention to get across. I didn't want to alter the HH and was having trouble finding many spots where it happened in PT so I just posted the first two where I *happened* to have a reasonable hand. I'll learn from this in future posts. Let's just pretend I have 78s in the first hand for a gutshot and backdoor flush draw. I like a raise facing a weak lead in that spot much better than the one I posted even though a nine will be a bit tricky if he plays back. You get the idea.

Sorry, I kind of [censored] up OP by posting medium to strong made hands that did not get my point across very well.

KingOtter · #34 11-29-2007, 09:56 PM

Like this one?

PokerStars $0.10/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

BB: $25.00
UTG: $25.90
MP: $65.60
CO: $22.20
Button: $40.85
SB: $60.65

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG raises to $0.80, MP folds, CO calls $0.80, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.20, CO calls $1.20.

Flop: ($6.35) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets $0.25, Hero raises to $3, UTG folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $6.85

What about...

PokerStars $0.10/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em - 5 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

BB: $23.55
UTG: $21.15
CO: $25.85
Button: $49.95
SB: $26.80

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, Button calls $0.75, SB calls $0.65, BB folds.

Flop: ($3.25) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $2.50, CO folds, Button calls $2.50, SB folds.

Turn: ($8.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button calls $6.

River: ($20.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $7, Button calls $7.

Final Pot: $34.50

vixticator · #35 11-29-2007, 10:27 PM

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Like this one?

[/ QUOTE ]No those are minbets which just have no meaning whatsoever, instaraise. These are weak leads too just REALLY weak. I mean more 1/2 pot size bets into a raise.