Is This Cheating?

[HuskerFan85]

[ QUOTE ]

No it's not. Physical tells are never 100% accurate -- not even close. And they can be faked. Flashing cards cannot be faked. You have certain information that undermines the entire game.

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May not be 100% accurate, but for the most part we're talking about non professional, amateur poker players... not phil ivey. When you got a tell on someone, it usually is what it is.

[drunkencowboy]

What if you could see the cards in the reflection from your opponents eyeballs?

[HuskerFan85]

or hear him mutter his holdings under his breath ( ive witnessed this.)

[drunkencowboy]

Final table at the WSOP - its no longer cheating...

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No it's not. Physical tells are never 100% accurate -- not even close. And they can be faked. Flashing cards cannot be faked. You have certain information that undermines the entire game.

[/ QUOTE ]

May not be 100% accurate, but for the most part we're talking about non professional, amateur poker players... not phil ivey. When you got a tell on someone, it usually is what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

A "tell" will let you know if that person likes his hand -- or how strong/weak it is *in their mind*. It never actually lets you know (for sure) what the cards are.

[Mockerman]

Poker is not a game, like society could be considered, where there should be a sense of social justice. This being said, I do believe that the two can be seperated. A raging artery is indeed a physical tell - this is considered a part of the game.

How people do not consider the idea of noting someone's hole cards through a reflection on an object to NOT be cheating, I do not understand. While poker is indeed not part of some socially just order, I do think (as most of the rules dictate - and as current decorum requires) that poker is however a game of honor.
The player must be honorable - there are angle shots that are within the range of the rules, and there are angle shots which are outside of these rules. I feel shots considered outside of these rules (such as a string bet for the purpose that string bets are outlawed) would be frowned upon by ANYONE in this community. While reading off the relection is not dictated by rule to be illegal, if one is to understand poker as a game ruled over by honor, it is indeed cheating not to inform the player.

[HuskerFan85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No it's not. Physical tells are never 100% accurate -- not even close. And they can be faked. Flashing cards cannot be faked. You have certain information that undermines the entire game.

[/ QUOTE ]

May not be 100% accurate, but for the most part we're talking about non professional, amateur poker players... not phil ivey. When you got a tell on someone, it usually is what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

A "tell" will let you know if that person likes his hand -- or how strong/weak it is *in their mind*. It never actually lets you know (for sure) what the cards are.

[/ QUOTE ]

not entirely true. what if you noticed that a girl strokes her chip stack everytime she has an ace in the hole. I rmember a time I seen an old guy look at his cards, his eyes about fell out of his head, then proceeded to push his whole stack in preflop. I knew he had aces, and I placed a prop bet with the guy next to me for a dollar. I won.

[Senator_Thack]

Whether or not you believe you have an obligation to the player wearing glasses to inform him of his mistake, you do have an obligation to the rest of the table to inform them that you saw the cards.

From Robert's Rules of Poker (Section 3 / "Showdown"):[ QUOTE ]
6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems pretty clear.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
Whether or not you believe you have an obligation to the player wearing glasses to inform him of his mistake, you do have an obligation to the rest of the table to inform them that you saw the cards.

From Robert's Rules of Poker (Section 3 / "Showdown"):[ QUOTE ]
6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems pretty clear.

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I wonder if that's enough to get people to change their vote/view? Two thumbs up Robert's Rules. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]