66 vs Ultra LAG

[Xexilla]

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $49.75
BTN: $47.65
Hero (SB): $50.25
BB: $64.80
UTG: $86.40

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.50, CO folds, BTN calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="red">BB raises to $3</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: ($7) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets $4.50</font>

EL_Pedrin0 is donking about playing ultra LAG raising most pots 3 betting frequently is my call pre correct? or should I not be set mining oop? Also once the flop hits should I call? thing is I know hes firing the turn most times so only card I really wanna see is a 6 or below or a 9. How should I have played this??

Cheers.

[Pokey]

If you call this flop bet you need to be COMPLETELY prepared to call ANY turn bet and ANY river bet. You're standing up for yourself, here, and sometimes you'll get lucky. Given the flop it's less likely than usual to have hit villain (because it's paired). Two random cards will hit at least a pair on an unpaired flop about 30.2% of the time; given that the flop is PAIRED, two random cards connect with the board only 19.6% of the time. That makes this a better-than-normal time to stand up to BB.

If you choose to stand up to him, you've got to be prepared. This will require:

1. A willingness to risk your entire stack.
2. A pair of brass balls.

Is this the time? Now? Are you going for it? If so, check the flop. Then call.

Then check the turn. Then call.

The check the river. At this point, if you've hit a six somewhere along the way you can check-raise all-in on the river. Otherwise, call the river bet, too.

Against an ultraLAG the only way to make money is to let HIM put it in the middle. Any bets you make will either fold him out or get called by bigger hands than yours. It's a completely -EV move to bet or raise an underpair against this guy.

Now, if you're too scared to follow through with this plan there's no shame in check/folding the flop. Just realize that flops that do not contain a six simply don't get any better than this one for standing up to an ultraLAG. He KNOWS you don't have a draw and he KNOWS that you're much less likely than usual to have connected with the flop. He sees that there's no A and there's no K, and he's going to put wicked pressure on you to fold. If you can't call ALL THE WAY DOWN, let it go now. But if you're not willing to call all the way down on a flop this good, you should probably fold pocket pairs 99- to a raise like this, because you can't take the heat OOP and heads-up.

Make your stand or don't, but be prepared for a rollercoaster if you decide now's the time. There is no hand reading involved -- it's just blind luck.

[Xexilla]

This is a hand vs the same player later on he had 89os.... relatively easy river call obv but I think I was afraid to play marginal hands vs him which is why it was no set no bet for me with the 6's... Thanks for the advice.

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $236.90
CO: $93.55
Hero (BTN): $81.80
SB: $84.15
BB: $61.25

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, SB calls $1.75, BB folds

Flop: ($4.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $3</font>, SB calls $3

Turn: ($10.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $7</font>, SB calls $7

River: ($24.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $72.15 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $69.80 and is All-In

Results: $164.10 Pot ($164.10 Rake)
Hero showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$81.80 NET)
SB showed and LOST (-$81.80 NET)

[Maunzekater]

[ QUOTE ]

Results: $164.10 Pot ($164.10 Rake)
Hero showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$81.80 NET)
SB showed and LOST (-$81.80 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

Too sad pokerstars doesn't offer rakeback deals [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[wslee00]

i agree w/ pokey that flop is c/c, but I just prefer to not let him catch any of his overcards on the river - so i like a crai on the turn. He may even fold if he pairs a T, 7, or 8 on turn and you crai.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree w/ pokey that flop is c/c, but I just prefer to not let him catch any of his overcards on the river - so i like a crai on the turn. He may even fold if he pairs a T, 7, or 8 on turn and you crai.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's playing scared, and it's also a -EV move.

Assume villain has missed. That means he's got six chances to improve out of over 42. There's a 1-in-7 chance that villain hits a hand on the turn, and a 1-in-7 chance that he hits on the river. You're WAY ahead, and pushing villain out of the pot is burning money.

Assume villain actually has a hand (it happens once in awhile, after all). In that case, your CRAI just burns your entire stack, whereas calling down might not cost you everything.

The only time the CRAI is profitable is if (1) the river card would have made villain a better hand than yours, or (2) villain's hand is better than yours but he's scared enough to fold to your turn push. Since both of these are rare occurances, you actually make more money in the long run by clanging your brass balls together and calling down like a hero.

[Milky]

So pokey, would you call down if turn is T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and river is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? In other words, are you calling down no matter what comes to make a stand here?

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
So pokey, would you call down if turn is T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and river is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? In other words, are you calling down no matter what comes to make a stand here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I've made a stand, I'm pretending I'm all-in -- there is no fold button on my screen. Against naked overs I'm better than 50/50 to win, and I don't trust that my opponent has overs. Even if a four-flush hits the board, there's still a less than 50/50 chance that my opponent has a flush, and if he's the sort who bets no matter what then it's still +EV to call down.

Like I said -- plug your nose and call. The board doesn't matter: you're making a stand. It's the "call the flop, call the turn, fold the river" line that makes this villain all his money -- we CANNOT fall prey to it or we'll bleed money to him all night. If you're going to fold you fold either preflop or on the flop. Once you call the flop bet you're committed.

[Antinome]

In these spots I always feel like such a total moron when I'm right on the flop and turn, but wrong on the river, that it tilts me into next week and I can't play poker. Nothing else tilts me like that. Straight flush on the river beats my boat? whatever. set over set? Standard. I push a 15 out combo draw, you call with overcards and hit. I love it. But calling down a maniac with a pair of deuces and having him hit a 3 on the river- Excuse me, I'll be vomiting in the girl's bathroom, trying to cut off my e-penis with a spork.

And if I win, I feel like I'm such a genius I'm apt to go on to get myself involved in other hands situations in which genius play is required.

Someday I'll be able to call all the way down and laugh when I see he sucked out, or celebrate modestly when I was right,
But for now I fold flop. (most of the time)

[Ben K]

As much as I agree Pokey is pretty much the best poster ever, I'm not sure I would advocate calling down all the way (though I'm not he is either just noting the required brassy balls)

My preferred approach here would be a nice juicy check raise on the flop to $17 or so. I'd often donk this flop though for c-bet size. The pre-flop call is fine so long as you acknowledge you're doing more than merely set mining and to do more than merely set mine you want to take the initiative at some point. The flop is the cheapest place to do this. Like Pokey says, the turn is too expensive if he's likely to double barrell.

If he calls, you've narrowed his range considerably, he's still unlikely to hit his overs/draw but he's longer got the "I'm LAG, I raise anything range". Anyway, you'll find him fold a lot of the time.

When I say that though, I assume everyone else folded pre or folds before you act again? If there's anyone else around fold.