WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)

[Arnold_O]

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Jerry said "nice call" and pushed his cards in. This means Kalmar should get the pot regardless of what anybody has; he shouldn't have to show his hand either. People who say "nice call" or whatever without mucking and waiting to see the callers hand are dicks as well (bigger dicks IMO but w/e).

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is this true?

suppose the cards don't touch the muck and they get turned over.

i thought they had rules in place to prevent collusion that would allow another player to ask to see the cards.

[fightingcoward]

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Who folds Queens at a final table with no Ace or King on the board? How do you put Yang on AA or KK?

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had childs called here and knocked out yang who do you think would have taken this down?

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Kravchenko? Or maybe Lee Watkinson...

[Dima2000123]

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Shame Kravchenko didn't win it. He played 10 times better than anybody else at the final table.

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This is IMO again a wrong perception created by showing a limited number of hands. Just like Yang seemed to lose many big hands and yet never move down much on ESPN, Kravchenko was doubling up without moving up much on ESPN.

On the small hands that PPV viewers saw, Yang was scooping up the blinds, limps, and even raises PF like crazy. OTOH, Kravchenko was quickly bleeding the chips he won in his double-ups, by limp folding or raise-folding pre-flop. Kravchenko played well only when he was in push-fold mode.

[menacing_1]

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Thoughts:

ESPN almost covered this like "[censored], let's just get this over.'

They missed one of the biggest stories, which was the fact that 1- it took forever and was a massive grind, and Rhame clearly went on tilt and tried to bust for about 20 minutes, but failed in doing so and untilted.

They did make Yang look like more of a luckbox than he was.

Jerry Yang seems really FOS to me. Between the bizzare Bill Elder thing, and other stuff, I just feel like he's just saying whatever he thinks will make people like him.

The best players at the table just played so bad at Yang. Just ugly.

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Dids, why not try to promote leadership on 2+2 instead of spewing negativity that seems to be growing like a cancer on this site because of people like you?

Kudos to Jerry Yang, one of the most sincere and humble people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. While most of us can only dream of accomplishing what he has, I doubt that many of us could have endured what he had to in his lifetime just to get to where he is now. Much the same can be said for Tuan Lam, and my hat is off to both of them.

[Dima2000123]

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Who folds Queens at a final table with no Ace or King on the board? How do you put Yang on AA or KK?

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had childs called here and knocked out yang who do you think would have taken this down?

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Kravchenko? Or maybe Lee Watkinson...

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Hilm would probably win it. That final table was ripe for a LAGtard, and Yang happened to be lucky enough to get rid of the only other one pretty early on.

[carlgraham]

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I know many will say "but ESPN helped create the poker boom," but if they're not gonna add some cash to the prize pool I have no problem with any player not giving away free info for ESPN's benefit.

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I sort of sympathize with this position, but don't the tourney players sign something requiring them to show their hole cards? If so, couldn't ESPN send someone to the floor to enforce the rule? Ultimately what would happen if a player flat-out refused - time-out?

Cheers, Carl.

[Ghazban]

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Jerry said "nice call" and pushed his cards in. This means Kalmar should get the pot regardless of what anybody has; he shouldn't have to show his hand either. People who say "nice call" or whatever without mucking and waiting to see the callers hand are dicks as well (bigger dicks IMO but w/e).

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is this true?

suppose the cards don't touch the muck and they get turned over.

i thought they had rules in place to prevent collusion that would allow another player to ask to see the cards.

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I don't know about the specific rules in place for this tournament but in most games, if you muck at showdown, you forfeit the pot and the other player gets it without having to show. Any player can request to see the hand but if it is a player who was not involved in the showdown, the dealer will typically kill the hand (this is done by tapping it against the muck) and then turn it over. If somebody with cards at showdown asks to see it, it is still live when turned up and can win the pot if nobody shows a better hand.

[gman06]

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Hmmm... when Yang won everyone was saying what a donk he was, but watching this he seems to be playing pretty solid aggro big stack poker. He played better than everyone at the table except Kravchenko. Everyone else was just giving away their chips.

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Yang played the JJ early on badly, his call with JT was lol atrocious, his 3bet with AT versus Kravchenko was bad (but not awful), putting Kravchenko all-in with a $20 million bet with 88 was pretty terrible, his preflop call of Rahme's 3bet with A5 was also really bad.

Two of those he got burned for small amounts of his stack, the other he could have been crippled but was fortunate that (1) Childs folded QQ after putting in half his stack, (2) he ran into the only coin flip hand in Kravchenko's calling range, and (3) he flopped his ace without being dominated against Rahme (whose reraise was a clear big pair or big ace).

Yang's a nice guy and played better than some people at the final table. (Hilm's call with KQ on the AT8 flop was really bad, Watkinson's push with A7o was beyond horrific, and Khan's call with 33 versus Kravchenko's short stack all-in were all pretty bad plays from some otherwise decent players.) But while he was certainly aggro and that helped him chip up in some spots that helped him survive his running bad / bad beats in the middle of the final table, he was far from solid.

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I agree w/ most of that.

Here's my two cents regarding the FT. Because I am so infuriated by the level of play and am convinced I should have won the ME this year, I'll make a lengthy, serious post just for kicks.

Yang: I think the A9 call vs Watkinson was terrible. I also think his consistent raising of 5-10X the BB is pretty gross. I watched the entire FT, and although Yang didn't play awful in the sense that he played very aggressively, it is extremely obvious he lacks fundamentals in his play. The JTo all-in call and the A5o call after Rahme reraised him huge are two of many instances that come to mind.

Another is the hand where he c/r Lam, by far the tightest player at the table, w/ 2nd pair, AT, for value. That hand is one example of many instances where Yang could have easily been in terrible shape, but ended up being in a coinflip type situation when the money went in.

I will say this: If Yang realized he sucks at poker and could never compete w/ the other players at the table, I think he played pretty well as his bet sizing eliminated a lot of skill from the tournament. I also think Yang is a tool and don't care how "nice" he is. Praying at the table and calling other players/Norman Chad your "idol" sucks.

Other random thoughts:

Hilm: I HATE his call w/ K high on the A high board, knowing Yang loves to fire again and absolutely despises folding.

On the hand where he had 58dd, I actually don't hate his play. Jerry had been firing on the flop and turn quite a bit, and I think he had a decent amount of fold equity there. Nevertheless, I would likely c/c the turn as well and make a decision from there (likely shoving 5, d, and maybe 8 rivers). Both of them still had tons of money behind if Hilm just calls the turn bet. I dislike a c/r on the flop based on Yang's style and stack sizes as it sucks to c/r and then get 3-bet pushed on that deep. Essentially, I would do anything and everything to get involved in pots w/ Yang and make him play every street as he will inevitably make mistakes. Overall though, I thought Hilm played pretty well in the ME, minus that awkward stare of his.

Rahme: Although he didn't make any terrible mistakes that were shown in the broadcast, I still think that dude sucked. I am convinced bet/fold is the bet line on the flop on the KK hand. Futhermore, he was also making several raises to like 10X the BB. More importantly, after Yang sucked out on his QQ, Rahme made a series of terrible plays such as open pushing for 30BB before he sucked out w/ AQ and calmed down a little bit.

Watkinson: It goes without saying that pushing w/ a7o there is terrible. Here's a thought: Take a flop, in position, 35BB deep against an incredibly weak player. His push there fit right in into Yang's gameplan (if he indeed had a gameplan).

Kravchenko: He played solid/good, but almost every hand he showed down seemed remarkably standard to me. I also think he should have attempted to steal way more pots. If you noticed, he doubled up like 3 times, but every time his stack whittled down again because he was limping/folding too much.

Lee Childs: Hate the QQ hand. I think pushing or cold calling the raise is fine preflop. Bet/folding the flop is just awful though. The whole point of betting there is so the inexperienced Yang puts his money in w/ 88-JJ or some random bluff. Once he puts that much money in the pot, folding is criminal. Personally, I think c/r the flop all-in is by far the best/standard play in that spot. If I was ever going to fold there, I would need a sick, sick read and would just c/f the flop.

Kalmar: I thought he played fine. I was thinking about the AK vs. Yang's 88 hand where he busted, and I don't really see how else he can play it. Obviously he's not folding, and cold calling Yang's huge pre-flop raise doesn't seem right to me either. This was one of the few circumstances @ the FT where getting the money in pre-flop against a weaker opponent who you know is likely to call you was still the best play.

Khan: I don't hate Khan as much as a lot of people, but I do find him slightly annoying. His play at the FT was fine, although I personally wouldn't have made that awkward reraise preflop. And if I did, I would have waited to see the flop before the put the rest of my money in as I think it would increase my FE a little.

Lam: I certainly think Lam was playing to move up the pay ladder throughout this FT and agree he played way too tight. But the most disturbing part of Lam's play at the FT was his HU game. I can't tell you how badly I wanted him to just own Yang, but instead he let Yang run all over him when it got down to HU. This leads me to believe that the dude is just a total nit. Also, it seemed like Lam waited until he was in the danger zone before moving in w/ an inferior hand on several occasions during the FT. I remember being shocked to see him turn over A6hh when I watched it live. Not that I think that it's a bad play w/ Yang raising in front and likely to call w/ any two, but I just thought to myself "So that's the hand you've been waiting for?". Another example of this was when he moved in w/ 4 high PF, HU after Yang had run him over for the first 15-20 hands of HU.

[JMX]

Has Hilm ever heard of position?

[Bad Beat Bill]

Is there any sort of Youtube or other kind of link to this?