Pot awarded incorrectly - how should it be solved?

[Phill] · #1 07-26-2007, 02:34 PM

Im sat in a 2/2 PLHE game here in Manchester - the game has just started and its pretty early. The dealer involved is one of the better ones at the casino and is one of the few i dont constantly check for errors calling pot size and screwing up the action/missing people etc. Dealers here in the UK generally suck.

Anyway, a hand comes down where the board reads:

Tx8sTx,5s,7s

The action is irrelivent i guess - at showdown there is an all in and a two way showdown. One showed 55 and the other JsTs for trip tens turning into a flush.

I look away from the table at this point and drink my coke - and when i look back i see that JT got pushed the pot and that the board cards and hole cards are face down and being shuffled.

I speak up (rightly?) and point out it was pushed incorrectly. That JTs had the flush but that 55 had a winning boat. JT guy says he thought he had a boat but the board as i describe is 100% right so im sure he didnt. Another player in the game agreed with me and i think he saw it straight away but didnt speak up (unethical?).

Anyway - i basically say it was reported wrong, the 55 guy realises he lost the pot incorrectly and the dealer tries to get the camera used to check it.

Whilst they are checking it, JT guy asks 55 how much he had (£60) and he gives him those chips back so he didnt lose his money.

I have no idea where the rules stand if the guy came back and the camera saw it was wrongly awarded - but the camera didnt pick it up for some reason so there is no evidence.

55 guy is obiously a bit tilted by this, but doesnt make a big song or dance - he plays on a while longer, loses another couple buy ins and quitely leaves.

Obviously im very impressed by JT guy shipping the dude £60 but in the series of events ive a few questions:

1, Should i have spoke up? Is it best to just let it be and it isnt my job to point out such an error once the hand officially ended?
1b, If someone else had noticed but didnt speak up, does he deserve a swift kick in the nuts?
2, If the camera showed the hand clearly and there was evidence, could and should the casino reward the pot? Does it simply rely on JT guy passing the chips over and the casino cannot retroactively award pots?
3, Should JT guy get a knighthood for not being a POS and shipping the guy his £60? Is it too little in your opinion and he should ship the potsize, or close to it (at least £120) from an ethical standpoint?
4, Officially, once the pot is awarded and the cards are flipped and shuffled is the hand officially over and all decisions are final?

TMTTR · #2 07-26-2007, 02:42 PM

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1, Should i have spoke up? Is it best to just let it be and it isnt my job to point out such an error once the hand officially ended?

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Yes, you should have spoken up. Well done.

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2, If the camera showed the hand clearly and there was evidence, could and should the casino reward the pot? Does it simply rely on JT guy passing the chips over and the casino cannot retroactively award pots?

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Casino should have impounded the pot while checking the tape and award it once the winner was determined. (Defaulting to the declared winner -- JTs -- if inconclusive)

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3, Should JT guy get a knighthood for not being a POS and shipping the guy his £60? Is it too little in your opinion and he should ship the potsize, or close to it (at least £120) from an ethical standpoint?

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No medal. He probably knew he didn't win and thought he might escape by returnig the 60... and he did. If he voluntarily turned over the pot, he can get a pat on the back and a beer from the winner.

Mygtar · #3 07-26-2007, 02:45 PM

I usually keep quiet on these things and let the players and dealer figure things out.

After seeing this happen a few times in the past I keep my winnning hand in front of me face up with the "tip chip" on top and make sure I get the pot pushed to me. Works like a charm.

Peace,
Mygtar

[Phill] · #4 07-26-2007, 03:00 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
3, Should JT guy get a knighthood for not being a POS and shipping the guy his £60? Is it too little in your opinion and he should ship the potsize, or close to it (at least £120) from an ethical standpoint?

[/ QUOTE ]

No medal. He probably knew he didn't win and thought he might escape by returnig the 60... and he did. If he voluntarily turned over the pot, he can get a pat on the back and a beer from the winner.

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Didnt think of it that way. Maybe im naive and see the good in people too often [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Fwiw, the casino didnt impound the pot and so the chips were in play. I guess it gets interesting if the casino comes back intending to reaward it, finds the guy had lost all the pot and that the chips were scattered round the table.

AngusThermopyle · #5 07-26-2007, 03:02 PM

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He probably knew he didn't win

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The 55 didn't realize who the winner was.
The dealer didn't realize who the winner was.
Why do you think the JT knew who the winner was?

TMTTR · #6 07-26-2007, 03:25 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
He probably knew he didn't win

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The 55 didn't realize who the winner was.
The dealer didn't realize who the winner was.
Why do you think the JT knew who the winner was?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he said something like "Oh, I thought I had a boat." I have seen similar things happen where I have played. If the pot is being shipped to a player, it is very difficult for the player to stand up and say that he is not the winner instead of stacking the chips. Especially after he agrees to give some of the money back. If he truly thought he was the winner, he is not giving back money to the loser just because some other players tell him to.

It's not clear cut, but I would put it 70/30 that the declared winner knew that his hand wasn't best.

etown · #7 07-26-2007, 03:43 PM

ive seen this happen so many times and i get quite upset about the official ruling i continually here
at our casinos in town once the cards are mucked and in the was and the pot is rewarded the hand is dead and there is no longer nothing that can be done about it

ProfessorBen · #8 07-26-2007, 05:09 PM

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1b, If someone else had noticed but didnt speak up, does he deserve a swift kick in the nuts?

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No. This isn't Nazi Germany or a mugging scene. We don't berate bystander behavior. The table is one of the few places in life where YOU Protect Your Hand, not have someone else do it for you.