General Theory - KK/QQ on Ace high flop

[Phill] · #1 09-24-2007, 04:00 AM

Three hands from a pretty common situation. Spot the odd one out.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($100)
UTG+1 ($496.65)
MP1 ($104.15)
MP2 ($98)
CO ($31.95)
Button ($96.75)
Hero ($115.80)
BB ($122.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO calls $1, Button raises to $2, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO folds, Button calls $6.

Flop: ($18) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $11, Button raises to $22, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $40

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Button wins $40. 

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($116.95)
Hero ($185.10)
BB ($36.80)
UTG ($96)
MP1 ($61.60)
MP2 ($18.50)
CO ($51.35)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, MP1 calls $7.

Flop: ($21) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $12.5, MP1 raises to $30, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $46

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP1 wins $46. 

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($41.40)
UTG ($55.30)
UTG+1 ($58.90)
MP1 ($51)
MP2 ($119.65)
CO ($137.65)
Button ($240.75)
Hero ($152)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises to $3.5, 3 folds, Hero raises to $11.5, 1 fold, MP1 calls $8.

Flop: ($24) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $22.8, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $24

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP1 wins $24. 

The question i guess, is should you ever continuation bet an Ace high flop with a big pair like KK or QQ when you have 3 bet your opponant preflop?

I know its results orientated thinking, but this is such a common occurence where they give me heat and i fold that im thinking it might be best to just do as the third hand and give up on the flop.

But, if you bet half the flop, you only have to be correct one time in three to break even - so obviously you need to be correct >33% or bet <1/2pot or wherever the equilibrium lies.

And this isnt including the times you get floated on or have someone call on a draw leaving you in no mans land on the turn.

So where do you guys place the equilibrium - what size continuation bet is best? Is a continuation bet best, or is the lower variance, even if -EV, option of check fold the right route? How does flop texture come into play?

Albert Moulton · #2 09-24-2007, 04:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The question i guess, is should you ever continuation bet an Ace high flop with a big pair like KK or QQ when you have 3 bet your opponant preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you live by the code of the continuation bet, then you should continuation bet here almost every time. Represent the ace (or better), and then give up if he either doesn't believe you, or doesn't care if you really do have the ace. Either way you're probably beaten.

On the other hand, I check a lot of flops when I raise or reraise OOP whether I hit the flop or not. So, if that kind of style is part of your game plan, then the dynamics change a bit. Villains are little less likely to steal if they think I'll call or c/r a good portion of the time. So Cb's are then my "mix up" play rather than my standard. But I often play with more than 100bb's, so even in 3-bet pots, the SPR is still often 7-11. As a result, I'm often more interested in pot-control and inducing bluffs, or later steet calls from worse hands, than I am about taking down what's in the pot already or protecting my hand.

With only 100bb's in a 3-bet pot, you end up with a very low SPR. You can conditionally commit with a cb, then either c/f the turn, push the turn, or CRAI on the turn depending on how good your hand is, the texture of the flop, and your read on your opponent. But c/f on the flop just seems to weak given how much of your stack you've already committed to the hand in a 3-bet pot. In fact, I would expect an occasional c/r "bluff" without the ace on boards like these might be better than c/f.

Ironic · #3 09-24-2007, 06:08 AM

This is a good topic. I would love to see more replies to this.

Delphi · #4 09-24-2007, 06:43 AM

Against one opponent I always c-bet here. My c-bets are at least 3/4 pot. Haven't really analysed, but I believe its EV+.

Your C-Bets are too weak. With 11 into an 18 pot or 12,5 into 21 I would probably raise you with air but at least call and float.

What would you bet if the flop was J high? Gotta be consistent and not show weakness. Make it 15 into 18 and 18 into 21 and people fold.

Specialwon · #5 09-24-2007, 06:54 AM

These spots are all quite player and position dependent.

But, let's say for arguments sake that a "standard" range to call a 3bet might be, say, JJ+, AKo+. In that case, the single biggest risk factor is going to be whether the flop includes another broadway card. So, in example 1 with KK, although he has an A less than half of the time, you are a dog to his range whereas you would have been a slight favourite without the J.

I would also be more inclined, paradoxically, to 3bet QQ than KK on an A high flop because of the increased chance of folding out KK. With KK there is a stronger argument for c/c.

So, of the 3 I would say only No. 2 looks like a good candidate.

mmctrab · #6 09-24-2007, 08:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The question i guess, is should you ever continuation bet an Ace high flop with a big pair like KK or QQ when you have 3 bet your opponant preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you live by the code of the continuation bet, then you should continuation bet here almost every time. Represent the ace (or better), and then give up if he either doesn't believe you, or doesn't care if you really do have the ace. Either way you're probably beaten.

On the other hand, I check a lot of flops when I raise or reraise OOP whether I hit the flop or not. So, if that kind of style is part of your game plan, then the dynamics change a bit. Villains are little less likely to steal if they think I'll call or c/r a good portion of the time. So Cb's are then my "mix up" play rather than my standard. But I often play with more than 100bb's, so even in 3-bet pots, the SPR is still often 7-11. As a result, I'm often more interested in pot-control and inducing bluffs, or later steet calls from worse hands, than I am about taking down what's in the pot already or protecting my hand.

With only 100bb's in a 3-bet pot, you end up with a very low SPR. You can conditionally commit with a cb, then either c/f the turn, push the turn, or CRAI on the turn depending on how good your hand is, the texture of the flop, and your read on your opponent. But c/f on the flop just seems to weak given how much of your stack you've already committed to the hand in a 3-bet pot. In fact, I would expect an occasional c/r "bluff" without the ace on boards like these might be better than c/f.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. Are you only checking flops if you're OOP , and if so I'm not completely sure why, other than it gives you the ability to throw in an occasional check/raise.

Mike Kelley · #7 09-24-2007, 08:52 AM

It's part of his aggressive calling strategy.

Mike Kelley · #8 09-24-2007, 08:53 AM

Those all look like good laydowns to me. I CB all the time so if they play back at you on an A high flop they usually have it beat.

mmctrab · #9 09-24-2007, 09:49 AM

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It's part of his aggressive calling strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand (I think). I think it does add some unpredictability and help exercise pot control in certain circumstances when playing with a full stack which I always do now. I think it will also induce some bluffs from weaker hands that would just fold to a c-bet, at least that's been my experience.