How would you play KK in this situation? - Page 3

Mclane665 · #21 02-01-2007, 07:57 PM

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You have to raise the A small hands off this if they call and an A hits well that happens but its better than giving the A for free. Playing hands in this trappy way can get you into trouble and also stop you making bluffs later. If they both fold I probably show them the KK for this reason.

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Uh...what?

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I thought the post was quite self explanitary. Dont let Ace rag outdraw you for free, make them pay for the pivelage as they will miss more than they hit.

The more you slow play the less likely people are to beleive a bluff later on as they have not seen you bet for value on previous hands.

chrismystero · #22 02-01-2007, 09:25 PM

i dont think showing is a good idea if he has a tight table image....get the players thinking hes not so tight, not show a monster to confirm their read on him (or her?)

pokerpansie · #23 02-01-2007, 09:33 PM

I can honestly say that i have NEVER limped kk let alone aa, and I have been called a donkey on numerous occasions! YOU MUST ALWAYS RAISE KK and for that matter j9 off on occasion and sometimes 72 off, the last is wonderful when you get to show down a winner, talk about improving your table image!

kingwood kid · #24 02-02-2007, 04:39 AM

I would've folded pre-flop. I'm OOP. Up against multiple villains. Only 2 cards left in the deck to help me. There's probably a better spot later on, even if I only have 200 chips left by then.

Mclane665 · #25 02-02-2007, 05:26 AM

I dont mind showing the KK here If they think Im super tight thats fine I then loosen up and take down a few uncontested pots and If I hit a monster with rags like low straight or set people will find it hard to put me on it. I usually play in a way that gives me a very tight image and crushing someone early on with a big hand like KK or AA really helps.

UtzChips · #26 02-02-2007, 06:07 AM

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If he had turned over 89o this post would have had a completely different tone.

So we learned something tonight: there is more than one way to be results-oriented.

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True!
But what it showed to me, was that sometimes gut feeling is enough to justify a play like this and that slowplaying can be a very good strategy when you have an extremely tight image.

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Your "gut feeling" doesn't excuse not raising on the Flop.
If he had turned Two Pair, you never would have have known. You would have called him all the way. Especially if that "loose player" calling a lot, played Q9 and turned a Queen and milk bet. You going to put him on Two Pair/Str8 and fold? No.
Villian has 5 outs going into the Turn, you have to make him pay. Period. It lets him know that you have a strong hand. That way if he comes out firing on the Turn or ck/raises you, you then have some real info, instead of what you'd know after your weak/tight "limp-call-call."

TheStitch · #27 02-02-2007, 07:01 AM

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Your "gut feeling" doesn't excuse not raising on the Flop.
If he had turned Two Pair, you never would have have known. You would have called him all the way. Especially if that "loose player" calling a lot, played Q9 and turned a Queen and milk bet. You going to put him on Two Pair/Str8 and fold? No.
Villian has 5 outs going into the Turn, you have to make him pay. Period. It lets him know that you have a strong hand. That way if he comes out firing on the Turn or ck/raises you, you then have some real info, instead of what you'd know after your weak/tight "limp-call-call."

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Man. this forum really isn't open to playing styles other than "by-the-book/theory"....
I thought I could get an interesting discussion going here (if not on the forum of THE poker book publishing web-site, where?), but apperantly I was wrong.
You people seem to be unable to accept, that there are situations, when playing by-the-book doesn't get you very far.
Like I said before:
1. I had a fairly good read on him (bout 90% certain)
2. He would have folded to ANY raise or bet from me, winning me less chips
3. As Sklansky states, it's a poker player's job to get other players to make mistakes, and that's what I did.
He thought I was weak and bet, which was a mistake. He was the one going all-in with the loosing hand, so that was his mistake aswell.

But nevermind.... I'm sick of defending a play, which helped me double up.... (Especially since I have never contested, that, according to the books, this play was wrong) In my opinion, it was the best and only play I could have made in that situation, as every other move wouldn't have doubled my chips...

registrar · #28 02-02-2007, 07:09 AM

Stick around OP. I agree that we can learn a lot from you.

Soulman · #29 02-02-2007, 07:13 AM

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You have to raise the A small hands off this if they call and an A hits well that happens but its better than giving the A for free. Playing hands in this trappy way can get you into trouble and also stop you making bluffs later. If they both fold I probably show them the KK for this reason.

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Uh...what?

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I thought the post was quite self explanitary. Dont let Ace rag outdraw you for free, make them pay for the pivelage as they will miss more than they hit.

The more you slow play the less likely people are to beleive a bluff later on as they have not seen you bet for value on previous hands.

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Out of curiosity, why do you want a tight image this early?

UtzChips · #30 02-02-2007, 07:23 AM

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Man. this forum really isn't open to playing styles other than "by-the-book/theory"....
I thought I could get an interesting discussion going here (if not on the forum of THE poker book publishing web-site, where?), but apperantly I was wrong.
You people seem to be unable to accept, that there are situations, when playing by-the-book doesn't get you very far.

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You may be taking it too personal.

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Like I said before:
1. I had a fairly good read on him (bout 90% certain)

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What were the factors that gave you a 90% certain read on your opponent?

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2. He would have folded to ANY raise or bet from me, winning me less chips

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I want him to fold on the Flop.

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3. As Sklansky states, it's a poker player's job to get other players to make mistakes, and that's what I did.
He thought I was weak and bet, which was a mistake. He was the one going all-in with the loosing hand, so that was his mistake aswell.

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This is true. He also had 5 outs going into the River.

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But nevermind.... I'm sick of defending a play, which helped me double up.... (Especially since I have never contested, that, according to the books, this play was wrong) In my opinion, it was the best and only play I could have made in that situation, as every other move wouldn't have doubled my chips...

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If you're "sick of defending" you shouldn't be posting here. I think you're taking it too personal.

You will note that on my first thread, that I did not criticize your limp. This was an extreme situation, where according to you, you had been playing a full hour despite the fact that the BB was 20.

I would have limped with KK also, however, I would have been willing to muck it if an ace came on the Flop. I am not going to "win" two bets by raising Pre-flop and having two opponents fold.

If you have an overpair to the Flop against two opponents, those two opponents need 20 cummulative outs to make you a money underdog. Against 1 opponent, your Villian needs 14.

So, while your play is not "horrible" as suggested by some, it suggests a "cash game mentality" as opposed to tourney play.

When Villian bet out on the Flop, I would have made enough on my Kings and called and then raised the total amount in the Pot (including my call). I have won enough on this hand.

If he wants to call my raise, well then that's fine also.

Final thought: Your play has been executed by Pros on the final table of WPT events. That is the final table, however, and only has to work that once and has so many benefits in future play.

Keep posting. Stop taking it personal. When people call your play "horrible" respond with your defense. When a person gives a short negative reply, he/she is doing nothing but giving their opinion in cryptic style, with no benefit to others.
Your hand and post on the other hand, let us see inside your thought process, as I hope my post let you see inside mine. It does not matter if we ever agree. All that matters is that we gave it our all in defending our position.