Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?

[kerowo]

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err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

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Is the poster too far away to try and isolate with this pre-flop? I tend to at least think about isolating posters with hands like this.

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how and why are you trying to isolate being oop?



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I'd love to get rid of everyone but the poster and maybe the blinds here. Granted, this worked better when players payed scant attention to the table. I agree that basically this turns into a long distance steal which requires a pretty good read on table conditions.

[Smurph64]

I don't see too much off here. Preflop raise changes things but limping with this in that kinda of game is probably safer.

flop call is correct considering the power of your hand is in the draws not the high card, you don't want the other player to fold out. He did anyways but many peel one.

Turn and river are of course correct.

[Daniel Magix]

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Why not raise the flop to get bigger Aces and splitting ones to fold.


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Do we really want a bigger Ace to fold here? Are we showing down our Ace-high if we miss our draws?

[HotPockets]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great. Basically, coming over from 6max NL i'm still trying to get the lay of the land in limit. I'm almost through my first read of SSHE and i really think my mistake was preflop. In looking back, I think this is a fold. Is it correct to limp this after a few callers in late position? What about an open raise in HJ or CO? Also, I was questioning flop action because obviously in NL i play a lot stronger with this type of holding. Did i turn it down too much on flop? Shouldn't I be pushing the pedal down here? I count 9 hearts, figuring 1.5 for the 7's and about 1.5 for the 3 aces. Is 12 outs not enough to be pushing this 3 handed?

[Smurph64]

shlip its definitely not a fold preflop at this level. I usually raise it first in but calling is ok considering the strength of the hand and the fact that the range for limping is large in these games.

If you go 6 max of course limping this is a mistake.

[Fantam]

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Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great. Basically, coming over from 6max NL i'm still trying to get the lay of the land in limit. I'm almost through my first read of SSHE and i really think my mistake was preflop. In looking back, I think this is a fold. Is it correct to limp this after a few callers in late position? What about an open raise in HJ or CO? Also, I was questioning flop action because obviously in NL i play a lot stronger with this type of holding. Did i turn it down too much on flop? Shouldn't I be pushing the pedal down here? I count 9 hearts, figuring 1.5 for the 7's and about 1.5 for the 3 aces. Is 12 outs not enough to be pushing this 3 handed?

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Yes, it would be fine to limp in late position after a few limpers.

If the table is not too loose, I would consider open raising from the CO. Otherwise I would open raise from the button.

On the flop, dont forget that you are playing against a preflop raiser. If you raise, you risk being 3-bet.

Also you dont really want to drive out the player behind you, while you are still drawing.

FWIW, I would also only plan on calling BB's flop bet if I was playing NL (dependant upon the size of BB's bet and stack sizes).

[stephx]

Is it just me or don't we want alot of players in a pot with a hand like this one ? A nut flush draw against 1 player is not what I'm personally looking for. The more players, the more odds you get trying to draw and the bigger the pot usually is. I like to limp with a hand like this and will call a standard pf raise if there are a couple of players who also called.

[Daniel Magix]

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A nut flush draw against 1 player is not what I'm personally looking for.

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Not to be nitty - but he isn't drawing to a certain nut flush. But yeah, you want more players in with this draw. But with 12 outs, he is almost 1:1 to make his hand by the river. So yeah, having MP2 come along for the ride obviously adds value to his Flop call, but even HU he is in a profitable situation - especially since his villian has been the aggressor on every street so far.

[bozlax]

I was discussing this hand in AIM with DM, and he asked me to post my thoughts.

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played standardly

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I would actually say that preflop and the flop are standard and well-played. Raising this first in preflop isn't such a great idea at a full table without a read that the table is nitty-tight, and even then you've got a poster that's unlikely to fold. Similarly, you're drawing on the flop, why do you want to chance driving out the player behind you?

(This is part of my tirade against analyzing strategy wrt nano-limit hands. Any time you see the word "SHOULD", that means "don't answer me by saying, 'this is .05/.10, the players are horrible, they'll call with anything,'" because that's not helpful. Assume the Villan is at least rational, if not decent.)

Then we get to the turn. We caught our one-card, ass-end gutshot and we're heads-up. What hands, given the way Villan played preflop and the flop SHOULD we be getting value from with this raise? Overpairs/two-pair/TPTK might call but SHOULD fold. Worse flush draws can call. Sets can call. What hands are we getting pwned by? Jx, and there are a LOT of those in Villan's range, but because of our flush draw we can't fold if we get 3bet, as we SHOULD, by Jx.

Let's move to the river. Now he's donking into us when the third flush card hits and pairs the board. That's SHOULDn't be Jx, anymore, given that Hero raised the turn and Vill smooth-called. Now we're down to worse flushes and full houses in his range. What worse flushes raise pf from the BB? KhJh, period. QhJh is just about to rip us a new one, as is TT/88/etc. There's only one combo of cards that this river raise SHOULD be for value against.

Now, I post this knowing there's going to be a flurry of "zomg, but it's .05/.10!" responses, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering. My point is, if we're talking strat about .02/.04 and .05/.10 hands, let's at least talk about it reasonably. Because you're in position, I don't think there's any value to raising either of these streets; OOP, each one should be a b/cc.

[I R BABOON]

Nice post . Don't let the 'haters' make you stop posting such nice analyzes [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]