5CD - Full house OOP against two 1-card draws

THEjDonk · #1 04-14-2007, 09:39 AM

I was playing around with a deck of cards when I got this hand (constructed hand history):

Limit 5 Card Draw ($1/$2) (converter)

Hero ($31), Seat 4
BB ($45), Seat 5
Button ($21), Seat 6

Hero posts $0.50. BB posts $1.

Hero is SB with [Qd 4c 7h 4s 4d]

Round 1: (1.50 SB)

Button raises. Hero raises. BB caps. Button calls. Hero calls. 
Hero discards Qd 7h. BB takes 1. Button takes 1.

Hero has [4c 4s 4d 3h 3s]

Round 2: (6.00 BB)

Hero bets. BB calls. Button calls. 

Pot: (9.00 BB - $18)

I'm looking for opinions on the way Hero played this hand. Assume three decent players with good reads on each other. Button would raise with eights or better, any flush draw and a few open-ended straight draws. Hero usually has aces or better (any two pair) when he reraises, but will do it occasionally with a come hand. The big blind has probably got aces up or better when he caps.

I think Hero might have made a mistake or two in this hand. Has anyone else got opinions about this hand? I'll provide my own analysis and the results in a couple of days.

THEjDonk · #2 04-14-2007, 10:42 AM

I wasn't able to edit the post... When I said "decent" I meant that the players are better than most small-stakes players. Assume that it's online, so there are not many tells but the players know most of the tendencies of the other players.

Maybe Hero plays ok in this hand. He has some options, though. I'd like to know if you would have considered playing it differenty.

DOMIT · #3 04-14-2007, 11:18 AM

Personally, not really (wouldn't have played it differently). Especially when you stated that some will raise with a draw, why not give yourself the chance to 3-bet? With BB capping, he may feel obligated to call down with Aces-up, hoping you were just playing the button and don't really have trips.

Especially with you drawing 2, no one's going to bet unless they beat you, they'll be happy with the free show-down, so you have to bet, IMO.

~Glenn

Murakawa · #4 04-14-2007, 03:08 PM

played fine

Lottery Larry · #5 04-14-2007, 10:00 PM

What will the villans do post-draw, after hero puts up the neon sign "I have trips!" ? Or does hero normally hold a kicker with raised Aces?

That is the key to any changes in the play of this hand IMO.

Big Limpin · #6 04-15-2007, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing around with a deck of cards when I got this hand (constructed hand history):

Limit 5 Card Draw ($1/$2) (converter)

Hero ($31), Seat 4
BB ($45), Seat 5
Button ($21), Seat 6

Hero posts $0.50. BB posts $1.

Hero is SB with [Qd 4c 7h 4s 4d]oh boy! triples!

Round 1: (1.50 SB)

Button raises. Hero raises. i like that...especially b/c you know button will semi-bluff come hands. CHARGE HIM NOW. theres a real good chance BB will fold anyways, so no need to leave the door open for him. Also, sometimes he comes along for the ride anyways [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
BB caps. Button calls. Hero calls. 
Hero discards Qd 7h. BB takes 1. Button takes 1.

my default is d1 here...but given that the pot is big already, you'll probably still get the call from 2pr. However, villain with aces -up may just flat call you, where he would likely pop it if he thought you had 2pr. Also, the checkraise limits you to $4 unless you're beat.

Hero has [4c 4s 4d 3h 3s]u draw goot

Round 2: (6.00 BB)

Hero bets. thats the critiacal one. leading out is essential here, IMO. it would be such a fiasco if you check and it checks around. and given that button may complete a flush, its $6 vs $4BB calls. Button calls. 

Pot: (9.00 BB - $18)nh, nice pot. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I'm looking for opinions on the way Hero played this hand. Assume three decent players with good reads on each other. Button would raise with eights or better, any flush draw and a few open-ended straight draws. Hero usually has aces or better (any two pair) when he reraises, but will do it occasionally with a come hand. The big blind has probably got aces up or better when he caps.

I think Hero might have made a mistake or two in this hand. Has anyone else got opinions about this hand? I'll provide my own analysis and the results in a couple of days.

[/ QUOTE ]
My opinion is that you play it fine. I'd have taken identical line, but d1.

Big Limpin · #7 04-15-2007, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe Hero plays ok in this hand. He has some options, though. I'd like to know if you would have considered playing it differenty.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know how you would have played differently.
Its about the leadout vs checkraise, right? Your instinct was right.

THEjDonk · #8 04-15-2007, 09:03 AM

I was thinking about a check-raise or possibly check-call if BB bets and button raises.

I agree that it's probably best to bet out against typical opponents. If we assume two tough opponents, I think that it might be more profitable to check. I was asking for opinions because I'm not sure if this is correct. I might have been misguided when I realised that the number of bets that went into the pot on the river was very small compared to the strength of the hands that were shown down.

Here are some things I would consider:

HAND RANGES
-----------

The button can't have two pair because he's a tough opponent. He would have folded two pair before the draw. The only hands he can have here are trips, quads or a draw. This is probably a marginal call with a straight or flush draw because he might be drawing dead. I didn't mention it, but let's assume that the button would call with any flush draw or open ended straight draw.

The big blind has got aces up or better. He might occasionally reraise with kings up, ace kicker. There are about 20000 possible two-pair hands. He could have trips. There are about 55000 trip hands.

POST-DRAW ACTION
----------------

The median hand of the big blind is trip 5s or 6s I think. Because of this, I see no value in betting trip fours after the draw. The big blind knows this because he's a tough opponent, and will assume that a bet either means a full house/quads or some kind of bluff. Hero can't have high trips because he would draw one card with those hands.

Because the opponents will be able to put hero on at least a full house (or some bluff), hero can win at most two bets after the draw by betting out. By check-raising or check-calling, hero might win more than two bets. My reasoning is that the big blind should bet many of his high trips for value, and maybe aces up as a bluff. If the button was on a draw, he might bluff if checked to (or bet for value if he hits). He might also raise if the big blind bets.

After having considered this, I thought that a check might be more profitable than a bet. The other thing to consider is if hero can get more value by drawing one card to the trip fours instead of two. It's probably a mistake if one of the opponents has a pat hand, but hero has to discard first so he can't know this.

Does anyone change their opinions based on this analysis?

Big Limpin · #9 04-15-2007, 10:05 AM

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] oh. well then.

IMO, your villains are entirely unrealistic; if this was a real table, you'd deserve a kick in the balls for sitting in the worlds toughest 1/2 game ever.

THEjDonk · #10 04-16-2007, 05:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you'd deserve a kick in the balls for sitting in the worlds toughest 1/2 game ever

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. You're probably right. I guess this is mostly a theoretical problem. I try to avoid the toughest tables myself. Maybe I would play in a game with two tough players and three big fish, though.

[ QUOTE ]
I realised that the number of bets that went into the pot on the river was very small

[/ QUOTE ]

I do think I deserve a kick in the balls for using the word "river" in a draw-post [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]