Have I become too weak-passive/tight?

abscr · #1 08-21-2006, 04:29 PM

I really think I'm missing value bets, but I'm just getting out of a huge downswing and have been really passive at the tables compared to my usual LAG'ish style. I've mostly been trying to play in position and with a lot less aggression, trying to minimize losses because it seems that when I don't get outdrawn on, I'm value betting and getting raised on the river when I'm beat.

My only real read here is that the table is tight. At one point, I raised 2 or 3 hands in a row and the whole table folded and another 2 or 3 times I raised, a psb c-bet took it down against one player, so I was a bit worried about the guy betting oop.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $9.50
UTG+1: $24.60
MP1: $5.05
Hero: $34.15
CO: $11
Button: $23.90
SB: $24
BB: $11.45

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1.25, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, Hero calls, 3 folds.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.5, Hero calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($5.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $3, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $11.75

No reads, here. Nothing scary on the flop so I decide let them see a card. Got scared on river.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $23.10
UTG+1: $10.80
MP1: $20.60
Hero: $43.10
CO: $21.45
Button: $15.25
SB: $22.10
BB: $24.25

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.75, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($3, 4 players)
SB bets $0.5, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($5, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets $1, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, MP1 calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($17, 2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: $17

I figured that was the worst card. I have all of the flush cards, so I figured I was beat. With this hand, I am more interested in knowing how often you guys fold on the river when a made hand is outdrawn. Such as a flush coming when you had a straight and the oop bets into you. Et cetera.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.95
Hero: $36.10
MP1: $8.95
CO: $17.60
Button: $26.05
SB: $25.85
BB: $5.20

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.75, MP1 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1.85, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, CO calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($4.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.25, Hero raises to $7.9, CO calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($20.15, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO is all-in $7.7, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $7.7 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $20.15

christyirish · #2 08-21-2006, 04:53 PM

first hand id fold preflop, and if i didnt i would raise the flop

as played i raise the river. Id agree your playing this too passive and missing a value bet

second hand, there is no way im value betting the river. A bet here would be a bluff. Also i would raise the flop for sure and probably raise preflop.

third hand i probably fold, but it is read dependent. U have the three highest flush cards. I dont know what your opponent is doing calling your checkraise. im guessing he has filled on the river. your getting around 3.5 to 1 to call however.

These stakes are pretty low and it is hard to know what your opponents are at because they don't really know themselves alot of the time.

shpongled · #3 08-21-2006, 05:20 PM

1. I raise the flop.

2. Definitely make a small value bet on the river.

3. Yeah, fold the river. I like leading out on the turn against most players.

shpongled · #4 08-21-2006, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
second hand, there is no way im value betting the river. A bet here would be a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? They are unlikely to check the nut flush here. I think they will pay you off with a small flush or even a straight here often enough for a bet to be worthwhile.

abscr · #5 08-21-2006, 05:26 PM

1: I don't mind calling with two 7's and some straight/flush possibilites. I'm seeing it cheaply and can easily get away from it playing from decent position. Are you raising the flop and folding to a reraise?

2: Why chase away another K that can hit a nice two pair so I can stack him? This is the safest flop ever. On the river, only two hands beat me (one very unlikely). You would never value bet that without a read? As for the pf raise, I usually only do that with a nice ds connector or AAxx with a short stack. Just my preference.

3: How often do you call on the river when something like this happens? I hate paying off draws and it seems when I do call, I always lose. This player was a regular, though, and I hate to seem so weak that bluffing becomes really profitable for my opponents.

illegit · #6 08-21-2006, 05:29 PM

Hand 1: Flop call is alright but i'd definitely raise the turn though.

Hand 2: Raise the flop, especially if you're gonna get spooked easy on later streets. But calling and raising turn is OK too. Value bet the river.

hand 3: Looks perfect, i might pot the flop though (note what this does to the bet sizing on later streets). River is close just because you're getting a pretty big price but against a decent opponent you're basically never good there.

And also i don't think you have to worry about someone calling your check raise on the turn with air just to hope the board pairs so they can take it away from you on the river or whatever. First of all it's pretty sophisticated, and overly optimistic since they don't have much left to bluff with. And secondly, it's -EV for them cause the board won't pair often enough, and sometimes you'll have the flush with the re-draw to a fullhouse etc.

abscr · #7 08-21-2006, 07:45 PM

What are people doing when they are reraised on the flop in hand 2?

Also, any more input on calling frequency on rivers when the obvious draw gets there?

Spellmen · #8 08-21-2006, 07:48 PM

Calling. If he were to reraise it's pretty clear he has a set, and there are no draws, so it would be foolish not to let him hang himself

abscr · #9 08-21-2006, 07:50 PM

Er, I meant hand 1.

shpongled · #10 08-21-2006, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1: I don't mind calling with two 7's and some straight/flush possibilites. I'm seeing it cheaply and can easily get away from it playing from decent position. Are you raising the flop and folding to a reraise?

2: Why chase away another K that can hit a nice two pair so I can stack him? This is the safest flop ever. On the river, only two hands beat me (one very unlikely). You would never value bet that without a read? As for the pf raise, I usually only do that with a nice ds connector or AAxx with a short stack. Just my preference.

3: How often do you call on the river when something like this happens? I hate paying off draws and it seems when I do call, I always lose. This player was a regular, though, and I hate to seem so weak that bluffing becomes really profitable for my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Yeah, fold to a reraise.

2. Not sure if she noticed that you had the flush. I can't see not value betting here. As for flop play, you'll often get extra value by making a raise here, not necessarily pot-sized. Someone with top two will probably call, but if an ace or something comes on the turn they'll be weary of putting much more money in the pot. It depends on the opponent - if you read them as weak, nothing wrong with calling and hoping they improve on the turn.

3. Rarely, but there are a lot of different situations, and you have to put the pieces together. When you pay off draws you give opponents the correct implied odds to suck out on you. Some opponents bluff the river often, but most of them do not.