PLO 100: big weak draw on flop in multiway raised pot - lots of action

[Silent A]

Initial limp was loose, but final call was a miss-click. Please don't bother saying "fold pre-flop".

No real reads. Mostly typical low level players who generally sort of know what they're doing. MP1 has raised a lot of big pairs and then felted most flops then re-bought for minimum several times.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 ($19)
MP2 ($58.40)
CO ($28.65)
Button ($95)
SB ($170.25)
BB ($118.85)
Hero ($124.85)
UTG+1 ($93.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $5.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $5.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $4.50, UTG+1 calls $4.50.

Flop: ($23.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $22.35</font>, MP1 calls $13.50 (All-In), <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $89.5</font>, Hero ...

Does anyone call/push here?

[piiop]

I'd fold and I wouldn't tell you to fold preflop.

[alavet]

looks like push

[Silent A]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold and I wouldn't tell you to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it wasn't a misclick, but it was the best way I could think of deflecting that annoying comment.

What I'd be interested to know is, if you vote "fold" how high would you need the overpair/flush draw to be to call/push? Aces obviously, but what about QQ and KK?

If you vote call, how low would you let the pair go (not counting flopped sets)?

[alavet]

hey you have very nice complex hand

but for me there is not question about the pairs in main pot bcs of we know that we already beaten via overpairs by Mp1.
about side pot i think JJ would be enough to beat them if they missed their draws on the river and A, K, Q wouldnt came. but again i dont think about JJ as an overpair but as potential trips and high card flush.

for know we are just beating for our str8/flush and nothing more (btw we are probably have to discount our outs of "4" , probably some1 already has a made str8 but its still playable.

it would be a very pitty though if you drawing dead there with someone's nut flush and someone's nut str8 +8 redraw.

but i still prefer to push there because of pot was raised pre and actions of the opponents very liable to GAMBOl-GAMBOL factor even with two pairs

[Silent A]

I'm not really thinking of the JJ as a useful overpair either. I'm just trying to figure that similar hand would be required to go to war here (i.e. how high should the flush draw be) but leaving it in the form of a pair so as not to give you a stronger straight draw.

[Poker monkey]

Looks like a fold - your overpair is certainly no good, your flush draw is probably no good, and only one end of your straight draw is to the nuts. I don't see much reason to get involved - it's one of those marginal +EV situations if it is indeed +EV, but you could also be drawing very slim. I wouldn't really be happy calling without the A-high flush draw and even then I think it's pretty marginal.

[Aisthesis]

Given this action, I definitely need nut flush draw with open-ender to consider a call. I think the pair is completely irrelevant.

Ok, you're playing really against button only, who's repping the made straight, possibly set with flush draw or something as well. The way you've described MP1, he might have less against that player, but there's no reason to believe that UTG+1 is an idiot, and he potted into a sizeable field.

Anyhow, UTG+1 is supposed to have 54, so one of your 4s is gone if you have some kind of As5s8 hand, which is normally 15 outs (only 14 if someone has a set). MP1 presumably has 2 flush cards, so we're down to 13, now button reps straight with redraw, too, so that eliminates at least another 4 taking it down to 12 winning outs or less (lots of redraws are possible).

Now, it costs you $90 to play, and there should be about $150 in there, so you're not even getting 2:1, more like 1.7:1.

I think it's pretty close even with the nut flush draw to go with the open-ender. I'd probably have to call, but I think a lot of your outs are gone even with nut flush draw.

I don't even thinking about calling with just open-ender unless I have the nut flush draw here (or 589T with T-high spades--I think that's also too much hand to lay down).

[iggymcfly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold and I wouldn't tell you to fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it wasn't a misclick, but it was the best way I could think of deflecting that annoying comment.

What I'd be interested to know is, if you vote "fold" how high would you need the overpair/flush draw to be to call/push? Aces obviously, but what about QQ and KK?

If you vote call, how low would you let the pair go (not counting flopped sets)?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOL. That's pretty bad when you're so ashamed of your PF call that you have to pawn it off as a misclick.

Anyway, if I were playing this hand, I would have led the flop with lots of outs against most hands and a small possibility of your JJ being good against a naked flush draw.

With the action behind you now though, your pair is completely irrelevant and I wouldn't call without the NFD to go with your open-ender. There are 3 players involved in the pot and their likely hands are: top set, NFD, a straight, or a high wrap. There's really not much else they can have.

Your JJ will never play unless you make a running boat and at this point, your flush draw's going to be dead at least half of the time, probably more. Even your straight draws can be for a split. So with your most common situation now being that you're drawing to 6 outs and your opponents will have good redraws if you hit, you definitely just need to get out of the pot.

[CrushinFelt]

This is a fold and it's not really close. You won't be in a situation often enough where you are getting the equity you need.