Newest Cardplayer Details AP Scandal. Except For-

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
Davey Sklansky, once again you do not respond to anyone's serious questions or responses to your original post or the Absolute Poker Scandal. Instead your sole response has to do with someone's criticism of the WAY you post. You are not only breaking the "internet codes of behavior" of behavior here, Davey. You are breaking the codes of conversation- when someone makes an initial statement, and others respond to that statement with questions or arguments, it is usually proper to respond back.

Thanks for bringing us all this breaking revelation about Cardplayer, though. I can't wait until you break the news that Barry Bonds probably has taken steroids, and there's something suspicious about his trainer Greg Anderson deciding to stay in jail instead of testify.

But seriously if you truly want these "ideas" to "get out there", you should probably focus your efforts on getting this info out beyond the BBV forum, where everyone already knows this, and instead into the mainstream media, in order to inform the majority of people who are still clueless. Then maybe you will actually be contibuting a little bit to something.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I wrote what I wrote about AP was soley because it was suggested that we would coddle them and I wanted to disprove that. I realize that my points were pretty well known already and I was merely seconding others.

As for what should be done now I have little opinion. Do you think it my responsibility to warn non two plus twoers away from Absolute? I don't. Do you think it is in two plus twoers benefit to drive Absolute out of business? Far from clear. Expecially if it hurts the internet poker industry in general.

[MarvinMartian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Davey Sklansky, once again you do not respond to anyone's serious questions or responses to your original post or the Absolute Poker Scandal. Instead your sole response has to do with someone's criticism of the WAY you post. You are not only breaking the "internet codes of behavior" of behavior here, Davey. You are breaking the codes of conversation- when someone makes an initial statement, and others respond to that statement with questions or arguments, it is usually proper to respond back.

Thanks for bringing us all this breaking revelation about Cardplayer, though. I can't wait until you break the news that Barry Bonds probably has taken steroids, and there's something suspicious about his trainer Greg Anderson deciding to stay in jail instead of testify.

But seriously if you truly want these "ideas" to "get out there", you should probably focus your efforts on getting this info out beyond the BBV forum, where everyone already knows this, and instead into the mainstream media, in order to inform the majority of people who are still clueless. Then maybe you will actually be contibuting a little bit to something.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I wrote what I wrote about AP was soley because it was suggested that we would coddle them and I wanted to disprove that. I realize that my points were pretty well known already and I was merely seconding others.

As for what should be done now I have little opinion. Do you think it my responsibility to warn non two plus twoers away from Absolute? I don't. Do you think it is in two plus twoers benefit to drive Absolute out of business? Far from clear. Expecially if it hurts the internet poker industry in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definately presidential material. At least you'd run the economy well, everyone just has to accept political rambling of a good leader. Just tell them where they stand, no details. "Far from clear", I like it, you should make it your soundbite.

[VP$IP]

Do you think it is in two plus twoers benefit to do nothing to drive Absolute out of business? Far from clear. Expecially if it hurts the internet poker industry in general.

[PoorSkillz]

Mr. Sklansky,

It is in 2+2er’s best interest, and in the best interest of online poker players in general, for Absolute Poker to be driven out of business. I’ll make it clear to you.

As of now, there is nothing to deter Absolute Poker or any other poker site from cheating its customers again. Previous belief was that no poker site would dare risk cheating its customers because the risks (criminal prosecution, loss of business) far outweigh the benefits (a few million dollars in extra revenue). Absolute Poker has proved that the opposite is true- they were able to steal at least hundreds of thousands and when they were caught they only had to return the stolen money back and did not face criminal prosecution or loss of business (due to, I believe, the lack of mainstream media coverage in bringing awareness of the whole scandal to the public).

Now that Absolute Poker has proven that there is little punishment for getting caught cheating, it now may actually be a +EV situation for some poker rooms to cheat their players out of money. As long as they keep their systems of cheating less obvious (thus greatly decreasing the chance of getting caught) they can steal millions of dollars without any significant losses involved if they do get caught (their biggest punishment being 10% interest on whatever they are caught stealing).

The only way to make it a –EV situation for poker sites to steal money from its players is to have the risks outweigh the rewards, through either criminal prosecution or loss of business. Obviously, the online poker community has no control over criminal prosecution, but it does have control over who it gives its business to. By forcing Absolute Poker out of business, the online poker community will show all poker sites that the risk of losing their business if caught cheating far outweighs the gain of a few extra million dollars.

Unfortunately, the mainstream media has control over what information the majority of the online poker community knows, and thus the majority online poker community still does not nearly know the depth of Absolute Poker scandal as the people in the BBV forums do. Is it your responsibility to help bring awareness of the scandal to the rest of the online poker community? No. But do you have the ability to help bring awareness of the online poker community? Yes, a lot more than the rest of us here can, and that’s why I urge you to stand up and fight for what is right.

Sincerely,
PoorSkillz

(Unfortunately, you most likely won’t respond to this post, as it actually pertains to the Absolute Poker Scandal, something you have “little opinion” on unless you’re starting another thread.)

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Sklansky,

It is in 2+2er’s best interest, and in the best interest of online poker players in general, for Absolute Poker to be driven out of business. I’ll make it clear to you.

As of now, there is nothing to deter Absolute Poker or any other poker site from cheating its customers again. Previous belief was that no poker site would dare risk cheating its customers because the risks (criminal prosecution, loss of business) far outweigh the benefits (a few million dollars in extra revenue). Absolute Poker has proved that the opposite is true- they were able to steal at least hundreds of thousands and when they were caught they only had to return the stolen money back and did not face criminal prosecution or loss of business (due to, I believe, the lack of mainstream media coverage in bringing awareness of the whole scandal to the public).

Now that Absolute Poker has proven that there is little punishment for getting caught cheating, it now may actually be a +EV situation for some poker rooms to cheat their players out of money. As long as they keep their systems of cheating less obvious (thus greatly decreasing the chance of getting caught) they can steal millions of dollars without any significant losses involved if they do get caught (their biggest punishment being 10% interest on whatever they are caught stealing).

The only way to make it a –EV situation for poker sites to steal money from its players is to have the risks outweigh the rewards, through either criminal prosecution or loss of business. Obviously, the online poker community has no control over criminal prosecution, but it does have control over who it gives its business to. By forcing Absolute Poker out of business, the online poker community will show all poker sites that the risk of losing their business if caught cheating far outweighs the gain of a few extra million dollars.

Unfortunately, the mainstream media has control over what information the majority of the online poker community knows, and thus the majority online poker community still does not nearly know the depth of Absolute Poker scandal as the people in the BBV forums do. Is it your responsibility to help bring awareness of the scandal to the rest of the online poker community? No. But do you have the ability to help bring awareness of the online poker community? Yes, a lot more than the rest of us here can, and that’s why I urge you to stand up and fight for what is right.

Sincerely,
PoorSkillz

(Unfortunately, you most likely won’t respond to this post, as it actually pertains to the Absolute Poker Scandal, something you have “little opinion” on unless you’re starting another thread.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument assumes that it is almsot certain that the bad apples remain. Not just the bumbling idiots who might deserve another chance. And it doesn't address the problems that other sites would have if enough of an effort was made to put them out of business.

Do you think that PS, FT and PP want that effort made?

PS. I would likely change my stance if internet poker was legal in the US now. Are you an American?

[VP$IP]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that PS, FT and PP want that effort made?

[/ QUOTE ]

Far from clear.

Are you in a position to ask them, off the record?

[PoorSkillz]

I have to admit this is 1 of your most unclear posts that I have read but I'll attempt to answer it to the best of my abilities.

[ QUOTE ]
Your argument assumes that it is almsot certain that the bad apples remain. Not just the bumbling idiots who might deserve another chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you are talking about bad apples remaining at Absolute. Yes, my article assumes that the bad apples almost certainly remain, but that is only because Absolute Poker has done absolutely nothing to clear up these assumptions. If the bad apples were truly no longer with the company would it not be in AP's best interest to inform us of this in one of their press releases? (Nat, who visited AP’s Costa Rican offices, even stated he believes Scott Tom still owns AP.) Even if all of Absolute Poker’s bad apples are gone, this event has shown that (since no one knows if all the bad apples truly are gone and it’s likely they’re not) a poker site can keep its bad apples (that’ve cheated its players) and do so without any repercussions. This sets a precedent that any other poker site can cheat its players and if caught, leave it up to assumption whether or not the bad apples have been ousted from the company without fearing any repercussions in terms of loss of business or criminal prosecution. I believe it is up to Absolute Poker to, at the very least, prove that all of its bad apples are gone if they want to stay in business, something it hasn’t even attempted to prove so far. Even then, it is definitely NOT in poker players' best interest for Absolute Poker to remain, because if AP stays in business it proves that it could still be +EV for poker sites to cheat its players and not prove that its bad apples have been ousted when caught, seeing as that's what AP has done so far and it has not really suffered.

[ QUOTE ]
And it doesn't address the problems that other sites would have if enough of an effort was made to put them out of business. Do you think that PS, FT and PP want that effort made?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when were we talking about the interests of other poker sites? I believe we were talking about the interests of poker players!!! No, I guess poker sites might not want that effort made, seeing as how they have made no effort to denounce AP (though there may be other reasons for this that I don't know). Maybe it isn’t in poker sites best interests because it takes power away from the poker sites and puts it into the hands of the poker players. Either way, I don’t care what is in the poker sites’ best interests, because we are talking about what is in the poker players’ best interests.

[ QUOTE ]
PS. I would likely change my stance if internet poker was legal in the US now. Are you an American?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am unsure of what you are trying to say here, but yes I am American (just read my location). I’m hoping you don’t mean that because it’s “illegal” in America right now, that is some kind of reason why we shouldn’t boycott AP. I don’t know, I’m totally lost on what your point is here, enlighten me. Actually, you could even make a new thread about it!

[dank stax]

[x] was wondering why everyone on 2p2 hates Sklansky

[N 82 50 24]

Not sure which AP to put this in, but there are more questions/answers up on PokerNews here: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2007/1...em-PartTwo.htm

I think this might be the one of most interest to people on 2p2:

PN: Did you clear any accounts of wrong-doing during your trip to Costa Rica?

NA: Yes. During the course of the investigation, two accounts were mentioned consistently as being possible cheating accounts. Those accounts were MCBILL and OSCAR133. I was able to examine hand histories of the events where MCBILL and OSCAR133 achieved success and can state conclusively that no "insider cheating" occurred in connection with those two accounts. In my opinion, these two accounts were publicly and wrongly accused.

[apefish]

There is a fine line between speculation, which Absolute Poker helped foster because of the stonewalling, and accusations.

edit: enjoyed the second part of the Q&A.