The Well: Adanthar (1/16/07)

[CobraGoat]

I was the same way through law school. Found poker and hardly ever went to class again (B+ avg lol) only problem is i never got good enough to be making posts like this [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Now I'm an attorney two years out and F'ing hate it. Knew I should have gone to pharmacy school.

In any case, a couple things, if you are still answering:

1. You mention being a winner at the high mid level cash games but because of your sng/mtt cautiousness you are not so much a winner at HSNL. COuld you elaborate on the mentality you feel is necessary for those level games. I would also like to point out that I have heard it said by several TV pros (The Grinder comes to mind) that in the HSNL games they play much more cautious then when in a MTT.

2. I was interested by your comment that you wish you had developed your cash game fundamentals before your tourney skills. Elaborate? I too have come to feel this way. (NOTE: i am an all around small stakes player). I started out online briefly with cash games until i found SNGs. Moved from 5s to 10s to 20s over the course of a year w +15% ROIs at each level. Then started to play MTTs and have by far made the most money in that format. However, I felt i was a weak later street poker player and have spent the past 5 months or so at the micro stakes. Sadly, I am barely beating this level (~1.5-2BB/100 over 15000 hands .25/.5). Is this a waste of time? Should i just go back to my nitty bot-like tourney ways that at least made me money? Being unable to soundly beat the microcash games makes me believe i am likely one of the ones who does NOT "get it". sigh.

3. What are your thoughts on overmanaging one's bankroll? I began to play online poker about 3 years ago through some promotion where I got a free $50 bucks. Since that time I have never put a dime of my own money into online poker. Over that 3 year period I have withdrawn around $10K from MTT scores (primarily) and SNG grinding. Over that time, I have never let my online BR remain over $700. although i am proud of my BR discipline, I know this behavior has stunted my growth to higher stakes of play. I guess im just a nitty dude.

4. Do you have any particularly nutty poker stories you would care to share?

Thanks for all your responses thus far. It has been a great read.

[0evg0]

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Poker is actually a negative sum game, not a zero sum game (other than home poker).

Are you suggesting that online Poker should protect the youth from potentially negative effects of poker.

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From business point of view, you think it's more profitable to rake the entire $40k education fund from a young kid and let him broke without ever graducating OR let the same smart kid finishes the best law school and get a $200K job then come back playing poker at your site for a lifetime? which one is a win-win situation when you take the entire society as a whole?

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the 40k. and it's not even close.

[pokerraja]

Adanthar,
Thanks for the great thread. My question is concerning distractions. When I play I typically have 3-4 tables (cash/mtt's) running, the tv is on, and im browsing espn, 2p2 etc... And im also have conversations with my wife. This might somewhat explain my horrible results lately.

What is going on in your world when you typically sit down and get ready to play a session? Do you browse, watch tv, talk to wife etc...? Thanks.

[MyTurn2Raise]

Adanthar,

Are there any threads that clicked the light bulb on for you?
What are they?

How often do you review your own play? What is your method for reviewing?


What are you working on these days to improve your game?





many thanks


MT2R

[adanthar]

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I appreciate your honest and frank statement for this *unpopular* stance. As grown-up, we all know the reality doesn't have to be popular in naive minds. We know poker is a "zero sum game", players don't produce anything but rather than transferring money among people. 5% top players take the rest 95% ones' money. The deny of reality drives the losers to participate in the game.

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I don't think this is true. My guess at the actual number is...let's call it 10/70/20. Most poker players are neither big winners nor big losers; they are marginal 'something''s that wind up paying some money to a poker site or a casino, at around the same rate that they would spend on other entertainment, or perhaps even making a small profit. A few are big winners. A sizable chunk at the other end are big losers, who may either be rich or actual degenerate gamblers. (Sometimes, a marginal player will be in this group, too, as a winner at lower stakes moves up too fast or a break even player decides to blow his roll at Party blackjack.) That should give you an idea of where I come from on the next reply.

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You are an owner of Cake Poker, 'sup with this stance/will you spend lots of money on anti-gambling ads?

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Well, first off, there's the significant issue that I'm not even allowed to do anything other than hold stock, and second, the other significant issue that just because I won a tournament with the first place prize of "a bunch of stock" doesn't mean that anybody has to actually listen to me. Therefore, 100% of the following answer is strictly theoretical.

If I *ran* a poker site, I would say this: on the one hand, poker players are (presumably) consenting adults. On the other, gambling addiction *is* a real problem and nobody wants to be this generation's Big Tobacco executive. Having said that, poker, unlike casino gambling, is something that anybody can be a winner at; it doesn't even take a lot of study. Again, we all know of average 18 year olds (less in some cases, heh) that have six figure rolls from poker...so, clearly, a losing player is losing of his own free will.

Personally, as a player, I like the fact that Cake has a couple of prominent tabs devoted to limiting deposits/banning yourself from the site/etc., not least because I do feel that this encourages a losing player to take responsibility for his own choices (BTW, I also like the Stars way of letting people ban themselves from certain *limits*, too). In addition, as I said earlier, the vast majority of teenagers are not good at making decisions involving tens of thousands of dollars, so yes, I would support a 21+ age limit.

Am I a hypocrite for doing that when half of 2+2 is under 21? Meh. I'm glad you guys (meaning, those of you that are non-degen teenagers) are winners, and I'm also glad that I don't run a poker site, I just happen to have won a bunch of stock the week before last. Otherwise I'd have to, like, employ a PR guy to be good at not saying anything meaningful in message board posts.

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1. You mention being a winner at the high mid level cash games but because of your sng/mtt cautiousness you are not so much a winner at HSNL. COuld you elaborate on the mentality you feel is necessary for those level games. I would also like to point out that I have heard it said by several TV pros (The Grinder comes to mind) that in the HSNL games they play much more cautious then when in a MTT.

2. I was interested by your comment that you wish you had developed your cash game fundamentals before your tourney skills. Elaborate? I too have come to feel this way. (NOTE: i am an all around small stakes player). I started out online briefly with cash games until i found SNGs. Moved from 5s to 10s to 20s over the course of a year w +15% ROIs at each level. Then started to play MTTs and have by far made the most money in that format. However, I felt i was a weak later street poker player and have spent the past 5 months or so at the micro stakes. Sadly, I am barely beating this level (~1.5-2BB/100 over 15000 hands .25/.5). Is this a waste of time? Should i just go back to my nitty bot-like tourney ways that at least made me money? Being unable to soundly beat the microcash games makes me believe i am likely one of the ones who does NOT "get it". sigh.

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I *am* a winner at every game I've ever played, including 10/20 NL (okay, I think I might've been breakeven or a slight loser at 30/60 HORSE back when that game ran on Stars, but not by much). However, I practice game selection more than 90%+ of the pros on the site, so when I say 'win at 10/20 NL' I don't mean 'while sitting down with a bloody sweater'.

The pros at 10/20+ (and by this, I mean the ones who don't quickly go busto) possess three skills that MTT and SNG players do not ever develop. One is high level bankroll management and risk tolerance, to the point where they are fine with losing five or six figures in one night. No tournament player ever experiences that, and the switch to it is very jarring unless you run *really* hot. The second is deep stack play, which has been covered extensively in other threads, but is also much easier to develop if you start at the bottom. Finally, there's deep shorthanded play, something that sit and go players don't really know anything about (with 10 BB doesn't count) and a very good MTT player might see once every couple of weeks.

Therefore, when MTT and SNG players switch to cash, they tend, with some exceptions, to play very nitty. This usually hinders their development (note my post on page 1) and almost always cripples them against the *good* LAGs that you rarely see in MTT's.

So back to the point...I win, and intend to continue winning, at stakes that would've been called nosebleed a year ago (let's not forget that 18 months ago, Party maxed out at 200 NL and most people were happy playing 15/30 limit). I also beat midstakes 6 max, so I'm not going to say I'm a bad cash game player. But I do think that I would be further along at this point if I'd played NL cash from the start, and I also know I'm going to fall further behind the standard "rush up the stakes as soon as you see a fish" development curve (because the games where I know I'm a big winner at happen to be full ring) before eventually catching up.

Do I really care? Nah. I make plenty of cash anyway, and like I said earlier, I don't feel the need to get my sweater bloody. It would be nice to move up at the same rates as durr/raptor, though.

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3. What are your thoughts on overmanaging one's bankroll? I began to play online poker about 3 years ago through some promotion where I got a free $50 bucks. Since that time I have never put a dime of my own money into online poker. Over that 3 year period I have withdrawn around $10K from MTT scores (primarily) and SNG grinding. Over that time, I have never let my online BR remain over $700. although i am proud of my BR discipline, I know this behavior has stunted my growth to higher stakes of play. I guess im just a nitty dude.

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Okay, let's be logical about this: you are an attorney making, I assume, a decent amount a year. Your hobby makes you a few thousand a year, too. Not bad, but you want more, and yet you never keep a roll over what is needed to beat the mighty 50 NL game. Obviously, this just isn't going to happen.

You're scared that you might not really get the game. Since you've maxed out at 50 NL, that's probably true right now, and what's more than that, you're not even supposed to (because optimally playing 50 NL isn't poker, it's TPTK mining.) So...what's stopping you from taking all 10K and moving up to .50/1, where you still have a hundred buyins? You aren't relying on it for income, so...just go for it. At worst, you'll break even for a while and learn something more than at 50 NL...then win a bit, keep moving up and so on. Most of us got there that way at one time or another.

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Adanthar,
Thanks for the great thread. My question is concerning distractions. When I play I typically have 3-4 tables (cash/mtt's) running, the tv is on, and im browsing espn, 2p2 etc... And im also have conversations with my wife. This might somewhat explain my horrible results lately.

What is going on in your world when you typically sit down and get ready to play a session? Do you browse, watch tv, talk to wife etc...? Thanks.

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I generally autopilot MTT's early on unless they're big and/or important...some light TV, some websurfing, and my wife is in the chair next to me usually surfing, too. I blame the case of ADHD that is causing me to go ooh look bikes





okay...yeah, I play suboptimally when I'm not concentrating, and yeah, I don't usually *fully* concentrate. I think I'm reasonably equipped to handle that by now solely because it's something I'm used to, but the other part of that is once on the bubble and later, and while playing 5/10 NL+, you really do have to pay attention. How you get yourself to do that is up to you.

It helps that my wife's been with me since just before I started playing, so that she 'grew up with this' and completely understands/agrees with me when I tell her I need to tune her out for a while [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Having somebody that knows what you're going through next to you while making a big decision is really awesome.

[adanthar]

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4. Do you have any particularly nutty poker stories you would care to share?

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Honestly, the worst thing in the world when going through a casino during a major tournament is listening to some jackass talk about his bad beat for the 763'rd thousandth time, so not really [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

FWIW, though, since I'm just getting into 10/20 now I still have some 'wow' factor every time I realize I just won (or lost) a used car on one hand...okay, a whole bunch of it.

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Adanthar,

Are there any threads that clicked the light bulb on for you?
What are they?

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Once upon a time, there was an SNG pro called Gigabet. Gigabet crushed SNG's...I mean literally crushed them, for ROI's that would be considered 5x unattainable today...and no one knew why. (Well, it turns out a bunch of that was from cheating, but the cheating came long after this story.) He was so ridiculously LAGgy compared to every other ABC player that had the same exact playstyle in SNG's, and yet he won more than DERB ever did playing limit. Most people boggled.

At the same time, I was coming up through the SNG ranks and discovered satellites at the same time as Party came out with the Step 5 2-tables. Oh look, satellites to satellites...yum.

A month into this new 'play as many of those as you can' craze, I had stockpiled a few Step 5 freerolls, but by then people were directly buying in and feeding off the conveyer belt of fish straight off the top. Rather than jump in, I wound up datamining the games. At some point I made a post about that, Gigabet PM'd me and asked what I could get out of PT from those datamined hands.

So...I spent two weeks compiling dossiers on the top dozen SNG players at Party, including every hand they ever played and ever showed down, and then talking about them with Gigabet to determine how to exploit their tendencies. As a bonus, I got about fifty Gigabet HH's, just to see if I could track anything on his play that needed to be fixed, too.

I came out of that 10x better than I went in, and it's not close. If there's *one* way to get better...take a pro with a style you want to know more about and datamine all his games.

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How often do you review your own play? What is your method for reviewing?


What are you working on these days to improve your game?

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These days, it's mostly AIM. If a hand isn't basic to me, I wind up talking about it to one person or another. Occasionally, I'll still post it on 2+2, especially if it's 6 max or HSNL which I'm not used to, but most talk between posters with '04 and some '05 regdates takes place on AIM these days. It's not that we don't want to post, it's that it's often not helpful to put a hand on the board and get a bunch of replies that are starstruck/others by random people with 30 posts. At any rate, most hands at this point are either heavily read based or do tend to be basic...there's only so many ways you can play AK, y'know?

[furyshade]

how fast did you move up to 5/10, i.e how many hands did you spend at each lower level? what prompted you that you were ready to move up and what was your br when you did? im currently playing 1/2 and am not too far away from moving up, but not sure exactly when, so wondering if you can give me any insight on the above questions.

also, i was wondering if you think, aside from stupid things people do with their money, if you think it is a negative or a positive that a lot of players, those under or around 21, get to build a br and not have to worry about busting it, or if they do their life isnt over, they get a few years to build a br and learn so when they do have to live on their own they aren't risking as much already knowing how to play the game to some extent. i'd think it a positive that people are allowed to learn to play poker when hte money doesnt really matter to them so they can learn unafraid

[RichC.]

Great Well so far. I dont have any questions at this time but I do enjoy reading all your posts.

[Swami54]

We'll give this a try since you're answering everything. I always make it a point to read your posts to improve my game. Your logic in your posts is very well written. How would you like to take on a mini protege (like Negreanu)?...namely me of course. I'm a teacher and have the whole summer to devote to poker.

[adanthar]

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how fast did you move up to 5/10, i.e how many hands did you spend at each lower level? what prompted you that you were ready to move up and what was your br when you did? im currently playing 1/2 and am not too far away from moving up, but not sure exactly when, so wondering if you can give me any insight on the above questions.

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Since I switch games so often, I don't move up so much as sideways. But generally, since I know I beat MTT's at pretty much any buyin, I went to 2/4 at first solely to make sure I had the concepts down and then moved up immediately. If I had bankroll to worry about, I'd probably do 30-50 buyins and/or 'whenever I feel like everyone else sucks'. The second rule is more important than the first, since it minimizes the swings.

edit: this is for full ring and the bastard stepchild mix of FR/shorthanded that runs on small sites at high limits, though. Let's say I wanted to learn 6 max again: I know I can beat 2/4, so I'd play it for 10K hands or so just to acclimatize, move up to 3/6 until I was sure they sucked, move up to 5/10 immediately afterwards etc. If there was a big downswing in there I'd immediately move down to work some kinks out, or stop playing with guys I thought were owning me until I checked out what I was doing wrong. Again though, this assumes you have the BR for it and aren't afraid of the stakes.

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also, i was wondering if you think, aside from stupid things people do with their money, if you think it is a negative or a positive that a lot of players, those under or around 21, get to build a br and not have to worry about busting it, or if they do their life isnt over, they get a few years to build a br and learn so when they do have to live on their own they aren't risking as much already knowing how to play the game to some extent. i'd think it a positive that people are allowed to learn to play poker when hte money doesnt really matter to them so they can learn unafraid

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From the outside this just sounds ugly...think about it. Not everyone's a winning player, and not everyone wants to learn to play nosebleed stakes. You're basically saying that 18 year olds should train themselves to play for less $ now so they can lose more and not feel bad later on.

I mean, I know that you, personally, are a winning player. I understand your position, and if I were you, ActionJeff or Ozzy, I'd easily do whatever I felt like to circumvent a site ban solely because it'd be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to me. But should Vegas open up to 18 year olds because some of them win? (Also, when you answer this question, keep in mind we're one week away from pics of a 19 year old snorting coke off a naked hooker and everybody sort of halfway accepting this as normal/standard behavior)

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We'll give this a try since you're answering everything. I always make it a point to read your posts to improve my game. Your logic in your posts is very well written. How would you like to take on a mini protege (like Negreanu)?...namely me of course. I'm a teacher and have the whole summer to devote to poker.

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I don't take on proteges because that's way too much like effort, but I've always been more or less accessible on AIM [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]