Commerce 2/4.... some folds

Ian J · #1 11-13-2006, 07:49 PM

Hey,

Spent some time at Commerce this past week and managed to play 2/4 on multiple occasions. Thought I'd relay some hands and see what you guys thought.

4 handed for the first one. Opponent, for those who know her, is Jade. She basically just plays really good. I raise AhKd UTG and she 3 bets her button, I call HU.

Flop Ac Jc 6h I c/r and 4 bet her 3 bet she calls. Turn 7c I bet she raises I call. River Qc I check fold. Pretty damn sure I got the river right. What about the rest?

Second hand is against Ana. Apparently she wins a lot there, but I think she plays too tight and predictably for this limit. She is stuck and although not tilting hard or anything, is very likely upset at the time. I am also losing at this point in the game and could appear to be a little on edge.

Anyhow, I raise KsQs up front in a 7 or 8 handed game and she 3 bets her SB and I call. Flop is Js 9s 4d and I just call. Turn is the 3d and I raise her bet, she 3 bets me and I call. River is the 3s and I raise her bet again and now she 3 bets again and I fold. How do we like my line of waiting til the turn? I thought it was my best chance of getting AK to fold by playing it that way because I've seen her showdown A high multiple times.

mike l. · #2 11-13-2006, 08:03 PM

good read on ana she plays very tight and then shows down with A high and any pair constantly. folding is not in her arsenal. both folds are way correct. the only thing you might do differently is 4 bet the AK against jade in the first hand to help better define her hand and get value, but you dont need me to tell you that.

DeathDonkey · #3 11-13-2006, 09:18 PM

Haha I heard through the grapevine some young out of town kid(s?) were playing big at Commerce, guess you were at least one of them, glad I didn't bother coming up to play since all the good Commerce players figured you were the fish so there really was no fish.

Anyway I 4 bet hand 1 a lot because its 4 handed and if I can't 4 bet with AK what can I 4 bet with? I 4 bet more than the average bear preflop so I certainly do with this hand. After that you did good but if the river was a Qh I call fast.

Hand 2 this is a nice changeup but I think raising the flop is fairly believable as a pair, especially if you 4 bet it which is probably what I'd do with this big draw. She's never ever ever folding an overpair so obviously that's a bit spewy when she has a big pair but your equity isn't that bad in the worst case.

-DeathDonkey

mike l. · #4 11-13-2006, 09:25 PM

"if the river was a Qh I call fast."

wow see i almost posted that you fold no matter what. that jade girl is not value betting a worse A on the river so you are against aces up or a set every time there. she has a set of jacks.

for hero or you to 4 bet that turn against ana is a big spewrific mistake. in fact the turn raise against her 3 betting range on that board is a mistake. sorry guys she just never ever folds against anyone she takes to be lagtard (which is a lot of players). raising the flop for value and to get a free card is good. turn action here is spew.

Ian J · #5 11-13-2006, 09:42 PM

I think you're right that raising the flop is believable as a pair, but if she 3 bets I don't think I should ever 4 bet because a) she doesn't have AK like ever then and b) she's never folding that overpair then and c) my hand is then essentially obvious because I'm not gonna 4 bet the flop with AJ or something. I suppose 4 betting for the free card is ok, but I don't know that will happen.

Hand 1 I agree I should probably 4 bet it preflop, but you certainly can't do the same thing every hand. This time I called. I tend to call a lot here preflop so I suppose our logic is the same here but our strategy different.

It was only me for most of the time I was there, but the day I got there Chris, Kirby, and Mike (worm33) from Minnesota were on their last day of their trip and they played big one or 2 nights I think. A few of the big players there play really well but some are exploitable and if you find a donator or 2 then the games get really good. Not that I play every hand well or anything, but if they thought I was the fish then I can live with that [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

DeathDonkey · #6 11-13-2006, 10:26 PM

I meant 4 betting the flop not the turn. But Ian just mentioned a good reason not to do it anyway.

-DeathDonkey

skp · #7 11-14-2006, 12:28 AM

Why is hand 2 a fold on the river? Can she never not have AA here in a 4 handed game? plus, I am not saying that you would be tagged as a postflop folder but isn't that at least a consideration in this spot?

Anyway, I would call the second hand

Nate tha\\\' Great · #8 11-14-2006, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is hand 2 a fold on the river? Can she never not have AA here in a 4 handed game? plus, I am not saying that you would be tagged as a postflop folder but isn't that at least a consideration in this spot?

Anyway, I would call the second hand

[/ QUOTE ]

That hand was seven-handed, it sounds like.

But I don't really like the laydown either. You may have confused her with your turn play and she might sort of be making a loose re-raise out of spite, especially if she has the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. On the other side of the spectrum, there's an argument for just calling when you hit your flush draw. It's probably a raise but I think I could envision just calling if I sensed strength.

I also don't particularly like waiting until the turn. You've gone from being about 50% against her range to 30%, and the price for guessing wrong is twice as high. Plus the second flush draw coming on the board will further the impression that you're on a semi-bluff.

Ian J · #9 11-14-2006, 01:25 AM

Nate I agree with your post 100% and skp makes a good point too. As soon as I got done playing this hand I had second thoughts about it because of my different line of waiting til the turn with the draw. I'm actually really kicking myself for it now. I just thought at the time that she is so straight forward for the most part that she has to have JJ/99 here.

The reason I waited for the turn was that I thought it was my only chance of winning the pot without showing down my hand which I think is a good thing to do in these games most of the time. I however agree that it probably wasn't the best play in this instance. It certainly has merit though IMO.

As for raising the river, isn't that just trivially easy Nate? I mean her play is 100% consistent with AA/KK as well as JJ/99. I think I have to stick in a raise for value there given she WILL pay off with the overpairs.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #10 11-14-2006, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I waited for the turn was that I thought it was my only chance of winning the pot without showing down my hand which I think is a good thing to do in these games most of the time. I however agree that it probably wasn't the best play in this instance. It certainly has merit though IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't know that the turn raise does a better job of selling your hand. The flop is pretty draw-heavy and there are different philosophies about playing it slow versus fast on this kind of board, but as an unknown in this game I think you're going to be given credit for about the same range of hands either way. The flop raise also provides you with slightly more flexibility in terms of deciding whether to two- or three- barrel, working off your gut feelings about her demeanor and whatever else.

[ QUOTE ]
As for raising the river, isn't that just trivially easy Nate? I mean her play is 100% consistent with AA/KK as well as JJ/99. I think I have to stick in a raise for value there given she WILL pay off with the overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 100% consistent with JJ or 99 but I think there are a few players who might not 3-bet KK/AA there. Anyway working off those hands and those hands only (and giving full credit to KK/AA), you have a 9:6 equity edge which is pushing it if you're in a pickle about how to handle a re-raise.