the limp reraise

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the river girly man.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are joking right?

The SB is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fold here.

He either has a set (90%) of the time, or Queens up.

He's never folding. He probably won't 3bet you with a set, because if a TAG plays a hand like this, and raises the river, he will have AA always.

A river raise ehre would be mega retarded.

Also, to the OP, I hate the flop cap. You know when he check/3bets what his range is. Why are you capping? If you cap, if he has a draw, he will just check call the turn. this = no protection. If he has a set, and you smooth call the 3bet, he will lead the turn, you raise, he 3bets, you fold.


And to all those ppl saying "call the river, it's 20-1" You are failing to realize that if the OP doesn't haev odds to spike a K on the river, he should fold the turn. The only reason to call the turn is to conterfeit a lower set. Calling this river is almost as bad as raising this river.

[Nick C]

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Calling this river is almost as bad as raising this river.

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Let's not get carried away [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Raising the river is far worse.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling this river is almost as bad as raising this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not get carried away [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Raising the river is far worse.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that calling is that bad here. I'm almost going to fold the turn even getting 19-1. You are going to hit a K 1-22ish times. So you need to make up 3BB on the river.

You know you are getting at least 2. So it's close. Just in case the guy has a completely retarded two pair hand, or a two pair + flush hand, I'd call the turn. But, the way I'd play it, I'd only be getting 15-1 when I got three bet on the turn, so it's an easy fold for me.

folding is good.

calling is very bad.

I can't even think of an adjective for raising this river. If you really want to raise this river, just give 2BB of your limit to the red cross or something, at least it will do something.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
calling is very bad.

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It's not so awful. It's one bet.

And I'm going to argue it's not even that. We're almost always beat on the river. I know that. Villain has a set here nearly always. He's not going to be playing a hand like JJ like the nuts very often at all.

But we have 50 hands on the guy and he's played a little over 10 of them. We're at a wild table, and the craziness can become contagious. Giving Villain a hand like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] based on all of the action up until the river is possible, even if unlikely. Competing with that, we have 9 set combos that are the main thing we're worried about, along with (I guess) A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and Q9o, I suppose.

Anyway, I don't fold overpairs heads-up on the river getting 21:1. I just don't. Possibly this is a leak. Fortunately, though, the situation doesn't come up much.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
there were some spazztards in this game, so i thought i'd teach them a lesson.

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It's really really really really really dumb to teach spaztards not to be spaztards.

--Dave.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, to the OP, I hate the flop cap. You know when he check/3bets what his range is. Why are you capping? If you cap, if he has a draw, he will just check call the turn. this = no protection. If he has a set, and you smooth call the 3bet, he will lead the turn, you raise, he 3bets, you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line has its merits, but there is a trade-off going on here. We get better protection if SB has a draw or worse made hand (I'm not ruling that out -- certainly not yet) at the cost of paying two BBs on the turn to "learn" that SB has the set we suspected all along and dump our own set outs, which will be worth over 1/2 of a BB at the time we're folding. Also, a Q is not always going to fall on the turn. We're going to have to consider more seriously a very aggressively played worse overpair on a lot of turns. Furthermore, with a big draw, or even a worse made hand, SB will not always bet again on the turn after his flop check/3-bet got three callers.

We can't get perfect information in this hand. Sometimes you just have to make a judgment call regarding when you don't have an edge anymore and start getting yourself to showdown knowing that you're most likely beat but aren't always.

I don't really know what the best postflop line in this hand is, though. Probably at the table I would have played it like PBob on the flop but then would have just called the turn.

[Carmine]

I just call the flop C/3-bet by SB and then raise any non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], non A, turn. I want to make sure I get a chance to face the draws with two cold on the turn.

The way it was played I don't like the turn raise and I make the 21:1 call on the river because at least once I will see a busted draw here....or at least I tell myself that.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there were some spazztards in this game, so i thought i'd teach them a lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really really really really really dumb to teach spaztards not to be spaztards.

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, depending on the PFCC% in your game and the PFRR%, it may be best to PFLRR. You shouldn't do it often, though, because they'll remember you making this play in the future, and if you over-use this they'll correctly adjust their play and you're screwwed. Regardless, you're going to have a tough time in the future when you raise, because they'll think you won't have a premium pocket. Now, if you go back to normal play, they'll sometimes be wrong, but they'll most often be correct. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Given that the SB called two cold with those stats and gave action like that, I'm assuming that he has a set rather than 2pr. I'm also assuming that he will be just calling a river raise on an ace or king if you SNG him.

If this is true, just fold to the turn three-bet, I think. However, I haven't crunched the #'s on this. Basically I think the river is -EV and that he has a set. If you reduce him having a set to only like 80%, then it may be closer to a call, but I'm still not sure how much the river affects things.

To be 100% honest, I don't mind just calling the turn and river. SB has to be aware by this point that you limp reraised, which, given your action, is either AKs hearts or AA, KK. It sucks to turn your cards up then bet 5bb against a good player. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

If this were a live game (or he was single-tabling) and you knew that he was a really good player, just fold to his first turn bet. If he puts you on AKs hearts, AA, KK, then he knows that there's a 12:1 chance that you have AA/KK, and he still bet.

[DavidC]

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Not sure I like preflop... I don't like to play KK oop in a multiway pot.

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You're reading SSHE, which is cool. Take another look at the section where it discusses the different starting hands.

[DavidC]

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You don't raise KK preflop for protection.

Jesus.

Also I can't help but wonder if the "don't raise the turn" responses are results-oriented.

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If by results-oriented you mean "based on the results of previous action in the hand" then yes, they are results oriented.