Sit 'n Go Strategy study group -- Part 2: Mid Blind Play

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Second, all those hands like KQ, KJ, QJ, AT, AJo, JTs that I'll open-fold most of the time early on I will now steal with on the button or cutoff.

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I'm really interested in this as I have pretty much been open folding these late but I could be missing some value here. What do others think?

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My earlier range stays strictly at about 99+, AQ+, AJs.

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Get AJ out of there and be careful with AQ two I like limping AQ in EP as you iften get value out of hands you beat and can reasonable tell when to get away when ur behind.

[pineapple888]

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What's the most common mistakes the more experienced players out there see amongst the fish that we should learn to avoid during these stages?

1. I often see people making thin calls for a large portion of their stack that will often cripple them if they lose.
2. Playing Speculative hands badly and overcommitting with them.
3. Mistaking chip EV for Tournament EV.


Hopefully this should spawn some conversation even if it is flaming of me. Any other prominent mistakes evident in this level.

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That's a good summary I think. You really have to stop playing speculative hands completely because the implied odds aren't there. Reads and position become critical. The blind-to-stack ratio encourages conservative play because your risk-reward is poor when you try to steal (blinds are relatively low compared to your stack, but it is too easy to get committed), but at the same time, you have to try to maintain your chip position. So you have to time your steals well, and ALWAYS know ahead of time what you are going to do if you get flat-called, re-raised, etc. eg don't just say ZOMG I'm in the CO so I'm gonna steal and then you don't know WTF to do if it doesn't work.

You also have to know when to dial way back and let the foolios bust each other out for a while.

So, in summary, you gotta know when to hold em, and know when to fold em. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Slim Pickens]

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I'd say "high blinds" start when your effective stack is less than 10BB, either because that's where your stack is already, or if everyone left to act has less than 10BB because then your effective stack is less than 10BB.

Mid-blind is, in fact, a quite tricky and read-based segment of the game.

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I agree with this. For the most part, "Mid Blind Play" is going to include any situation where all of the players left to act have more than 10 BB, but less than about 18 BB. We're often making a tacit assumption that at least five players are left, although it's possible to apply the same methodology to analyzing 4-handed bubble hands that happen with stacks a little deeper than normal.

"Mid-blind is, in fact, a quite tricky and read-based segment of the game."

It's one of my main goals for this thread to demonstrate how important reads are to this stage of SNGs, and how the accuracy with which you put opponents on hand ranges is the single most important factor in mid-blind play.

[pineapple888]

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I'd say "high blinds" start when your effective stack is less than 10BB, either because that's where your stack is already, or if everyone left to act has less than 10BB because then your effective stack is less than 10BB.

Mid-blind is, in fact, a quite tricky and read-based segment of the game.

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I agree with this. For the most part, "Mid Blind Play" is going to include any situation where all of the players left to act have more than 10 BB, but less than about 18 BB. We're often making a tacit assumption that at least five players are left, although it's possible to apply the same methodology to analyzing 4-handed bubble hands that happen with stacks a little deeper than normal.

"Mid-blind is, in fact, a quite tricky and read-based segment of the game."

It's one of my main goals for this thread to demonstrate how important reads are to this stage of SNGs, and how the accuracy with which you put opponents on hand ranges is the single most important factor in mid-blind play.

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Damn it, now I kinda miss STTs. F the UIGEA. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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You don't still play pineapple?

[pineapple888]

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????/?

You don't still play pineapple?

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Not STTs. I just hang out here, like most of the veterans. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Slim Pickens]

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Also I'm assuming as this is referring to Mid Blind play ante's have not kicked in yet, yo? Or does MBP still include the 100/200/25 level?

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I started disliking Harrington's M a lot less after working through a bunch of Stars hands at the 100/200/25 level. It's still fairly rare to see a situation where the stacks are even enough that players face a lot of non-push/fold decisions, but it does come up sometimes. With six players, M=6.67 at the 100/200/A25 is a stack of t3000, so that will be an even less common situation than M=6.67 (10 BB or t2000) at 100/200.

All of the good analytical techniques are totally independent of whether or not there is an ante in play anyway.

[Shillx]

I don't have the book but here are my thoughts on this stage (up to 20 bb or so).

1) A good way to play is to simply fold every hand that you aren't willing to get AI with. This is basically what I did and it doesn't burn that many chips because the levels are so short. If you pick up something like 99 UTG you should probably just throw it away.

2) You are usually in "your hand doesn't matter" mode. There is very little difference between stealing with ATo and 54s OTB since you won't get called often (and even then you aren't always going to showdown) and you have to fold both to a shove. The trick is to find people that will give away their blinds and steal with whatever your delt. Your hand only matters if you are looking to showdown and this is the stage of the game where you are only looking to hold serve and avoid big pots without the boss hand.

3) Most people raise far too much when trying to steal. Of course this is fine when you have something but since your cards don't matter (if you decide to play this style) you should be looking for the smallest possible raise that gets it done. Generally you are looking at <= 2.5xbb. Not only does putting in a 4x raise lose more when someone does resteal, but people should resteal more often against larger raises when you aren't pot committed.

4) Restealing is tricky because of the different styles. Some aggressive players will play very few pots in this phase while others will be looking to pick up some easy chips. You have to figure out who is who before you developing a restealing strategy against regular players. Most successful players play a similar style in the push/fold part but those same players will range from TT+/AK to ATC when the stacks are more then 12 bb.

Brad

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I don't have the book but here are my thoughts on this stage (up to 20 bb or so).

1) A good way to play is to simply fold every hand that you aren't willing to get AI with. This is basically what I did and it doesn't burn that many chips because the levels are so short. If you pick up something like 99 UTG you should probably just throw it away.

2) You are usually in "your hand doesn't matter" mode. There is very little difference between stealing with ATo and 54s OTB since you won't get called often (and even then you aren't always going to showdown) and you have to fold both to a shove. The trick is to find people that will give away their blinds and steal with whatever your delt. Your hand only matters if you are looking to showdown and this is the stage of the game where you are only looking to hold serve and avoid big pots without the boss hand.

3) Most people raise far too much when trying to steal. Of course this is fine when you have something but since your cards don't matter (if you decide to play this style) you should be looking for the smallest possible raise that gets it done. Generally you are looking at <= 2.5xbb. Not only does putting in a 4x raise lose more when someone does resteal, but people should resteal more often against larger raises when you aren't pot committed.

4) Restealing is tricky because of the different styles. Some aggressive players will play very few pots in this phase while others will be looking to pick up some easy chips. You have to figure out who is who before you developing a restealing strategy against regular players. Most successful players play a similar style in the push/fold part but those same players will range from TT+/AK to ATC when the stacks are more then 12 bb.

Brad

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C'mon people give this thread more love, I think it's great good job Slim.


As far as your post goes I dis agree with a few things.

1. 99 UTG w' 20 BB 5-6 Handed I like a limp, but this is just a difference in style and I personally will sometimes fold given table dynamics or if severely multitabling (16+)

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You are usually in "your hand doesn't matter" mode. There is very little difference between stealing with ATo and 54s OTB since you won't get called often (and even then you aren't always going to showdown) and you have to fold both to a shove.

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I had quite a bit of a problem with this. There was a great discussion of this started by Ryanhall, maybe 1-2 months ago. Whilst assuming stacks are 20 deep and even you will fold those both to a push. I think BB defends with a call more than a push. Sticking in 20BB's there they usually have a pretty premium hand and you need probably 99+ Aqs+ to call. I hate raising here with 54s.

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The trick is to find people that will give away their blinds and steal with whatever your delt.

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I liked this,

TIP: Look for the big Multi-tablers like myself who are in auto muck/push mode.

4. Just keep your raises to a 3xBB +1BB for each limper. Varying ur raise too much gives away the strength of ur hand a lot (not all) of the time. I tend to resteal on people who minraise late quite wide.



Some thoughts??????????? Let's not let this die hopefully the series will become an awesome sticky.

[Pudge714]

Hypothetical mid game situation.
7 handed blinds are 50/100
You are on the button with 1500 every one behind you has 1500.
What action do you take with the following hands
QTs?
22?
A2s?
A7o?
How does your range change vs loose passive players?
How does your range change to people who will more or less push/fold to you're raises?