Another Harrah's/Jack Effel Snafu

[jogsxyz]

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I played the $2000 Omaha HL event yesterday and there was another messy situation. Apparently a pot was wrongly awarded to Robert Williamson III. Supposedly his opponent openly tabled bottom set at showdown where Williamson held top two pair. Apparently Williamson, the dealer, and most of the table did not notice the pot was being awarded to the wrong player until after the cards were mucked by the dealer. After the pot was shoved bloody hell broke loose as one or more players mentioned that the pot was wrongly awarded to Williamson. The floor then stepped in and made a ruling that they were going "upstairs" to check the cameras. They came back sometime later and said that the shot was inconclusive and that the pot stood awarded to Williamson.


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Why didn't the player with bottom set complain immediately? Have the rules been changed? When I hold the best hand, I refuse to muck til after the pot has been pushed to me.

[BartHanson]

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I played the $2000 Omaha HL event yesterday and there was another messy situation. Apparently a pot was wrongly awarded to Robert Williamson III. Supposedly his opponent openly tabled bottom set at showdown where Williamson held top two pair. Apparently Williamson, the dealer, and most of the table did not notice the pot was being awarded to the wrong player until after the cards were mucked by the dealer. After the pot was shoved bloody hell broke loose as one or more players mentioned that the pot was wrongly awarded to Williamson. The floor then stepped in and made a ruling that they were going "upstairs" to check the cameras. They came back sometime later and said that the shot was inconclusive and that the pot stood awarded to Williamson.


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Why didn't the player with bottom set complain immediately? Have the rules been changed? When I hold the best hand, I refuse to muck til after the pot has been pushed to me.

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Again, it was a situation where he didn't realize he had the best hand until someone mentioned it to him afterwards. His cards were openly tabled, however.

[shaniac]

Pretty sure chips have been added in the past in similarly "inconclusive" situations. I remember Todd Brunson returning from dinner break in 2005 PL 5K event to find chips missing, and I believe the floor's solution to this was, ultimately, to add more chips. (This was when Johnny Grooms was TD I believe).

Also, wtf is the point of having cameras in a poker room if the cameras almost never (do they ever?) yield conclusive information. Do they use much crappier cameras than the ones out on the casino floor or what?

[El Diablo]

shaniac,

You have to play poker against the casino to get the good cameras.

[jacksquat]

in my gambling "career" i have seen the cameras used three times...once in the aforementioned story, which was inconclusive. once at a craps table when a player was coloring-up after a big roll, which came out in the players favor. and,once when a craps dealer, box-man, and player were handcuffed and taken away for cheating.

one for the player, one for the house, and one inconclusive.

[badblood44]

This may seem like obvious advice, but dealers do make mistakes occasionally. I recommend keeping your hands on your tabled cards until the dealer ships the pot to you. If you were unaware that the pot should be awarded to you as this gentlemen potentially was, then you further open yourself up for things like this to happen.

I was witness to this at the MGM poker room when on a J-hi board, the dealer awarded the pot to a woman holding AJo, while a guy with KJd and a flush got his cards mucked. The dealer thought it was just a pair of jacks with a worse kicker.

I spoke up after the poker room manager asked the table what happened. But, the manager-dealer trust level will obvious be higher than the manager-random player one, so they went to the tapes.

Inconclusive was the ruling, which I very much anticipated.

My sense was that the woman knew she was beat, but wasn't going to give back the pot she would have gone broke on simply because it was the right thing to do.

[Tuco]

I was at the table. Posted this in the wrong forum.

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So i'm playing the $2000 omaha 8 tourney and Williamson is at my table. Here is what happens:

At the end of the hand, the board is AK6Q9 no flush. There was four players in on the flop and three left on the river. Action is on older man in the 4 seat on the river and he checks. RW3 checks and so does seat 2. Seat 4 turns his hand over and spreads it out right next to the flop and has 6678 for bottom set. RW3 doesn't see the man's set and shows AQ. Seat 2 mucks. The dealer MUCKS THE SET and pushes the rather large pot to RW3. Set guy who doesn't see well wants to know what RW3 had as the chips are stacked in Roberts pile. Several of us point out to the dealer that he f'd up.

Now all of the other players (3) that were in the pot all say they saw the set. I also saw it from the 7 seat. RW3 then says that some saw it and some didn't. The dealer certainly didn't see it as he mucked the hand. Of course, saying that players that weren't in the hand didn't see it is sort of stupid as they aren't generally paying close attention to a pot they aren't in. The fact that all three other players in the pot isn't enough to convince RW3.

Now the floor is called. Head floor lady inexplicably decides that all the players testamonial isn't enough for her and she wants to go upstairs. Ok, no problem. That will solve it. At this point I ask to continue playing as we are now being penalized for the fact that we have to wait for 15 minutes for the camera check. When I ask the floor person standing behind us if we can continue playing he says "it's not my problem". I tell him "of course it's not your problem you only work here. If you don't care about the tournament get lost and go read a book in a corner" He looks at me for about 10 seconds and decides that i'm pissed and if he gives me a penalty he;s going to get in a big battle. He leaves.

The lady comes back and says the video is "inconclusive". WTF? I point out that this means the [censored] cameras aren't even on then, because it's right above the table. Why not just say "ya, I know you pay a fortune in juice each tourney but we don't bother to turn on the cameras to protect you cause your all sheep who will pay to play tommorow anyway"

She AWARDS THE POT TO RW3! The older guy goes nuts obv. Wants his entry fee back. Other big name pro at the table tells me later "I can't believe Robert had the balls to do that".

Gets better. Almost two hours later Jack Effel decides that they are going to award the old guy half the pot. But, they aren't going to take the chips from RW3, they are GOING TO ADD MORE CHIPS INTO THE TOURNAMENT. So, instead of Harrahs playing the guy for their f up, everyone in the tournament is going to pay for it through EV. Unreal.

I then talked to two other people who were at a table when RW3 later recounted the incident and his version of course bears no semblance of what actually happened. Somewhat disappointing considering what happened in the Horse event and that RW3 is on the player's committee.

Tuco.

[truthadair1]

tell me whay a player waits to say something after the pot is pushed and the hand is mucked . if a player can see the mistake speak up when it can be fixed .

[Tuco]

The old man couldn't see very well. He thought RW3 had a better hand than he did. As the dealer was mucking his hand he looked over towards RW3's hand to see what beat him. A couple of seconds later and we were all telling the dealer he f'd up.

Tuco.

[BDHPlayer]

The old man ended up at my table later. He was still fuming and was going to take it to the gaming commission. He almost busted out before they brought him the additional chips.