ethical question, don't know where to put it but here it goes.

billybeartku · #1 10-26-2007, 07:34 AM

okay, a little long, please bear with me.

settings, nl100

me and my roommate were both playing (different tables of course, cuz the same IP, he plays FR and I play 6man), and he told me to play for him when he needed to go to the bathroom. So I took over.

One hand happened, another friend of mine in California(another nl 100 FR reg) open raised, and i cold called, flop T83 rag, he bet, i raised, he 3bet, i shoved. and he had set of 10s. (nothing's wrong here, just a bad play)

two days later, he posted this hand on the forum I run (in Chinese so too bad you guys won't be able to read), and told everybody that he felt being taken advantage of and felt he's sold out by me(wtf!?).

The reason? he said I said don't tangle with friends on the same table but I did in that hand(only hand when my roommate went to the bathroom). He said I outplayed him a lot (I think at this point, he was suspecting that my roommate's account is also mine, multiaccounting he said) cuz the play made by my roommate's account looks like from someone who knows him inside out. That being said, only who knows him well would pull that kinda move. (obv my roommate is a better nl100 FR reg than he does, according to all the hh I saw from my roommate's database after this thing happened)

I told him, I teach my roommate how to play, of course his style is like me, what are you talking about, it's poker, plus I just lost my entire 100 stack to you when I pulled the dumb move. I don't know why you take this hand so personally. He's like, cuz you were trying to win money from me behind your roommate's sn when your roommate was in the bathroom, you were using ur understanding about me to play optimally against me. I was like, dude, chill, it's poker, I lost my stack to you, why are u still overreacting?

He's still very upset about the fact that "I stabbed him in the back"(wtf!?). And this boring issue has snowballed in my forum these days.

I hope you guys know what I'm talking about and I'd like to hear some thoughts-like..1. I don't think I did anything wrong taking over my roommate's session when he was in the bathroom and was trying to win my roommate some money, even against friend I know inside out. 2. I think he's overreacting-why would I stab his back in my advantage (isn't poker all about knowing your opponent and play optimally against him?!)

some cliff notes:

his original post

I'll skip the hand history linky)
he posted the linky,obv for bragging that he stacked me with his top set (where his top set stacked my dumb shove) and said..

my opponent is a reg,
someone(he's referring to me) on this forum is very familiar with him(my roommate) <---cuz before I told him that guy is my roommate and they had a lot of history

he's also the guy who i play against everyday on stars
before this hand, I don't remember I've won any hands from him,
usually if i tangle with him, the result is that i have to give up on the flop.
and i didn't know that he was playing me like a fiddle until this hand..maybe i should reevaluate my game and see if i'm too bad

could it be someone(referring me again) taught him(my roommate) how to play against me?

okay then I replied, i said, hahah it was me who played that hand and my roommate got pissed that i lost him 100 dollars.

then 1 day later, he posted another one:

even if ur rooomie was in the bathroom,
what kind of shady behavior you think it was that you were trying to outplay me behind his sn and trying to win money from me.

I remember you always like to say, don't tangle with friends at the same table (we were in wsop together and it was at the wynn, but clearly he didn't oblige that cuz we did tangle one hand and i gave him the pot on the turn. he limped utg, bn raised, i 3bet from bb with AA, he cold called!and flop KXX, i cbet, he raised me! I decided to fold cuz like i said to him before hand, i didn't want to tangle with my friend).
But you let me feel that even if you say that, you are afraid of me winning your money, and you were hiding from a mask and take advantage of your understanding of me to win my money.
shouldn't you explain your shady behavior?
as a forum leader, i think you should reflect on yourself.

k, that's it, i translated everything from the forum i run.

Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Split Suit · #2 10-26-2007, 07:44 AM

ok...ill stab at this one.

well call u "hero", friend who went to the bathroom "frank", and other friend "larry"

as i understand it, Frank isnt mad at all. u just made a play that u thought was optimal, and it failed. on the other hand, Larry is pissy cuz he felt u were pullin a fast one on him playyin against him under a different alias?

if this is correct:

i actually agree with Larry. (however, i would not have my period on the internet over it). you really shudnt b playyin for ur friend, and playin against Larry does seem a bit shady (for all involved).

rly does seem a lil bad on ur part...but i understand ur POV as well. i just think Larry is more correct...tho like i sed, he shud stop cryying about it (and u guys shud stop softplayyin if at the same table. thats nonsense in itself).

LifeTilt · #3 10-26-2007, 08:12 AM

This is kinda funny because it reminds me of a hand with dobieatwar a couple months ago. First, he and I are good friends and talk often and we know eachothers games pretty well and can therefore offer qualified opinions as to certain lines, etc. So we're playing one evening and he opens for 4xbb, which is unusual for dobie (for those of you who play against him). I wake up with AA in the CO and decide not to 3 bet him and just call hoping to trap him with another big pair. We get heads up on a 358 rainbow flop, and I am pumped, ready for a stackola to come my way. He leads with about a 1/2 pot bet and I min raise plus a little just to get a pot going because I know he isn't going anywhere. He just calls, and it kinda makes me think a second, but nonetheless, when he donks the turn when another 3 hits (brought a flush draw) I let the timer run as if I am contemplating a call or something crazy. I figure no way he donks a turned boat, so I shove and he instacalls with fives full of threes...

He immediately let me know that he "wasn't taking shots at me or trying to be a dick," but the funny thing was that I *WAS* trying to make a move and get his stack! Anyways, my point is that we are all here to play poker and win money. Maybe we'll have some fun doing it. You have every right to exploit whoever you want whenever they are playing, friend or not. Dude, are you really THAT close of friends - online poker is about as personal as World of Warcraft.

That guy should be happy you paid him off and I think he's overreacting quite a bit. Now, if you are consistently playing with your roommates account, then this would be a whole different story...

billybeartku · #4 10-26-2007, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is kinda funny because it reminds me of a hand with dobieatwar a couple months ago. First, he and I are good friends and talk often and we know eachothers games pretty well and can therefore offer qualified opinions as to certain lines, etc. So we're playing one evening and he opens for 4xbb, which is unusual for dobie (for those of you who play against him). I wake up with AA in the CO and decide not to 3 bet him and just call hoping to trap him with another big pair. We get heads up on a 358 rainbow flop, and I am pumped, ready for a stackola to come my way. He leads with about a 1/2 pot bet and I min raise plus a little just to get a pot going because I know he isn't going anywhere. He just calls, and it kinda makes me think a second, but nonetheless, when he donks the turn when another 3 hits (brought a flush draw) I let the timer run as if I am contemplating a call or something crazy. I figure no way he donks a turned boat, so I shove and he instacalls with fives full of threes...

He immediately let me know that he "wasn't taking shots at me or trying to be a dick," but the funny thing was that I *WAS* trying to make a move and get his stack! Anyways, my point is that we are all here to play poker and win money. Maybe we'll have some fun doing it. You have every right to exploit whoever you want whenever they are playing, friend or not. Dude, are you really THAT close of friends - online poker is about as personal as World of Warcraft.

That guy should be happy you paid him off and I think he's overreacting quite a bit. Now, if you are consistently playing with your roommates account, then this would be a whole different story...

[/ QUOTE ]

def not, i have my own account and we play totally two different games. It was just that only hand that brought all these drama, that's why i brought it up.

mce86 · #5 10-26-2007, 08:24 AM

The difference in that situation, is dobieatwar is well aware that you know him, and he knows you. If you suddenly played as someone else, you could use that to an unfair advantage since now you know him, but he no longer knows you. Thats why it is one player per account....now to cry over it...must not be really good friends, but if you have been helping your roomate exploit a friend, that is crappy.

MrBump · #6 10-26-2007, 08:38 AM

I don't really understand why "Larry" is upset. Sounds like he's a bit insecure and not too confident in his own ability maybe ?

I think you were a bit out of line making a move with someone else's money though. I am sure that's not what "Frank" had in mind when he asked you to take over, right ? If a friend of mine asks me to take over, I'm just gonna play ABC for a few minutes til he gets back.

Answer this next question truthfully - Would you have made the same bluff/move if the villain hadn't been "Larry" ? I'm guessing the truthful answer is no, and in that case, maybe Larry does have a point ?

billybeartku · #7 10-26-2007, 08:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The difference in that situation, is dobieatwar is well aware that you know him, and he knows you. If you suddenly played as someone else, you could use that to an unfair advantage since now you know him, but he no longer knows you. Thats why it is one player per account....now to cry over it...must not be really good friends, but if you have been helping your roomate exploit a friend, that is crappy.

[/ QUOTE ]

to answer this, my roommate didn't know how to play poker until I taught him. Since then, he's been learning my style/thinking/games/concept (regardless of good or bad) and have always discussed hands with me for yrs. Hence, it's not too surprised that we both have almost identical style of playing, hence, helping him exploit my friend is out of question here. Why would I do that anyway?

billybeartku · #8 10-26-2007, 09:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand why "Larry" is upset. Sounds like he's a bit insecure and not too confident in his own ability maybe ?

I think you were a bit out of line making a move with someone else's money though. I am sure that's not what "Frank" had in mind when he asked you to take over, right ? If a friend of mine asks me to take over, I'm just gonna play ABC for a few minutes til he gets back.

Answer this next question truthfully - Would you have made the same bluff/move if the villain hadn't been "Larry" ? I'm guessing the truthful answer is no, and in that case, maybe Larry does have a point ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what me and my roommate thought so too. We both think he's taking that hand too personally and over reacting.

To answer your doubts, we have no problem about his money. He even stakes me and we are that close. So I'm sure losing 100 is okay for him.

2nd, yes, I do pull some stupid moves here and there, regardless of who I'm up against. That's why I'm still in low stakes grinding and learning. By the way, I forgot to mention, I was 12-tabling for my roommate, so I didn't even get a chance to look who made the raise and such,I called that hand only becuz i was on the button and had a playable hand, not to mention I intended to make a special play on him in the first place. I was busy clicking buttons and switching tables.

ElectricWaffles · #9 10-26-2007, 12:05 PM

I think your mate "Larry" is being a muppet. You probably did have an unfair advantage over him, but that's just the way it goes, it's not like you planned it that way. It's total chance that you happened to play for your mate "Frank" while he was taking a dump and ended up in a pot with this other guy.

If you were swopping accounts deliberatly to try and scam this "Larry" then yeah, I suppose he could feel a little irate. Maybe this is the way he sees it?

Also, why would you be playing soft against each other? You may be friends, but you're playing a poker game together. The object of the game is to take each other's chips. If you're bothered by that then maybe you should sit at different tables. If you start playing in a way that isn't in your own interest then you mess up the whole 'Game Theory' concept and leave yourself wide open to being exploited should your buddies decide this isn't the way they want to do things anymore.

Cry Me A River · #10 10-26-2007, 02:04 PM

Apologize by buying your friend a nice purse for her birthday.