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#21
11-14-2006, 04:31 PM
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Re: adjusting to flop raise/folder.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] He's getting 12:1 to call the 3bet, which is good enough for a 2 outer. [/ QUOTE ] im pretty sure you know this isnt true, just wanted to make sure [/ QUOTE ] You're right. I thought implied odds + hero 3balling light because of the blind vs. blind was enough, but villain has to have the best hand around 30% of the time to call here with a 2 outer (assuming 3BB from hero when villain improves). 
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#23
11-15-2006, 10:36 AM
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Re: adjusting to flop raise/folder.
[ QUOTE ]
IMO what you're dealing with a lot in this sort of situation (depends on the level and the site) is the sort of pain in the ass player who just likes to raise lots of flops. Lots of them. Puts you to the test with a wide range on the flop and leads you to making ugly calldowns with ATo or making ugly folds, etc. The 3bet here is good at least some portion of the time (here I'd say ~60%) because you want to dissuade him from taking these shots when neither of you pair, and make him play more legitimately when he has position on you. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Why doesn't calling here and raising the turn or even straight calling down dissuade him more? It makes his bluff s more expensive and forces him to fire at least 2 barrells.
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#24
11-16-2006, 04:04 PM
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Re: adjusting to flop raise/folder.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] IMO what you're dealing with a lot in this sort of situation (depends on the level and the site) is the sort of pain in the ass player who just likes to raise lots of flops. Lots of them. Puts you to the test with a wide range on the flop and leads you to making ugly calldowns with ATo or making ugly folds, etc. The 3bet here is good at least some portion of the time (here I'd say ~60%) because you want to dissuade him from taking these shots when neither of you pair, and make him play more legitimately when he has position on you. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Why doesn't calling here and raising the turn or even straight calling down dissuade him more? It makes his bluff s more expensive and forces him to fire at least 2 barrells. [/ QUOTE ] Basically there are going to be a lot of times where your opponent has position on you in these sorts of situations, and unless you're consistently calling down with K-high and A-high vs him, you're going to have a tough time balancing the value of your hands and your overall expectation if you're just calling down with TPTK. You're not always going to be flopping the world. A lot of hands you'd like to calldown with are going to be marginally profitable at best. While there are some opponents who I would take a more passive approach with, it's fairly rare, and this is definitely not that sort of opponent; in this case, you need to balance your flop 3betting range by having it be occasionally what is still the best hand (for example, I would 3bet ATo here a nonzero % of the time) and redirecting some of his aggression back to help you. Often what will happen vs this sort of player is that you get 2BB when you are ahead and lose 3BB when you are behind when he raises the flop, especially when he's raising a T24 flop with J8o and you have, for example, A9o. The idea is to dissuade him from stealing your blinds, from raising the flop at all, and even to an extent from peeling the flop as he knows he's going to face a lot of difficult decisions, even in position, later on in the hand. There's a lot of value to be had by getting what will often be ~6 outers to fold on the flop to aggression. Sometimes that means that you don't necessarily maximize your EV on this particular hand, but you will both define your opponent's range of hands better in the future and make him generally more unwilling to [censored] with you. It's a good message to send. Rob
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#25
11-16-2006, 04:13 PM
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Re: adjusting to flop raise/folder.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IMO what you're dealing with a lot in this sort of situation (depends on the level and the site) is the sort of pain in the ass player who just likes to raise lots of flops. Lots of them. Puts you to the test with a wide range on the flop and leads you to making ugly calldowns with ATo or making ugly folds, etc. The 3bet here is good at least some portion of the time (here I'd say ~60%) because you want to dissuade him from taking these shots when neither of you pair, and make him play more legitimately when he has position on you. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Why doesn't calling here and raising the turn or even straight calling down dissuade him more? It makes his bluff s more expensive and forces him to fire at least 2 barrells. [/ QUOTE ] Basically there are going to be a lot of times where your opponent has position on you in these sorts of situations, and unless you're consistently calling down with K-high and A-high vs him, you're going to have a tough time balancing the value of your hands and your overall expectation if you're just calling down with TPTK. You're not always going to be flopping the world. A lot of hands you'd like to calldown with are going to be marginally profitable at best. While there are some opponents who I would take a more passive approach with, it's fairly rare, and this is definitely not that sort of opponent; in this case, you need to balance your flop 3betting range by having it be occasionally what is still the best hand (for example, I would 3bet ATo here a nonzero % of the time) and redirecting some of his aggression back to help you. Often what will happen vs this sort of player is that you get 2BB when you are ahead and lose 3BB when you are behind when he raises the flop, especially when he's raising a T24 flop with J8o and you have, for example, A9o. The idea is to dissuade him from stealing your blinds, from raising the flop at all, and even to an extent from peeling the flop as he knows he's going to face a lot of difficult decisions, even in position, later on in the hand. There's a lot of value to be had by getting what will often be ~6 outers to fold on the flop to aggression. Sometimes that means that you don't necessarily maximize your EV on this particular hand, but you will both define your opponent's range of hands better in the future and make him generally more unwilling to [censored] with you. It's a good message to send. Rob [/ QUOTE ] As usual, pure gold.
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