far too common spot of trouble

[RudeboyOi]

okay i posted this in midhigh shorthanded
but see it also having definite merit here
and am looking for all the insight i can find

villian raises from CO
HERO 3bets QQ from BB
villian calls

flop A 8 3

HERO bets
villian raises
HERO (?)

whats the least exploitable line to take here?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post10476841

[private joker]

[censored] him, he doesn't have an ace. 3-bet the flop and bet the turn. If he raises you there, he'd have to be a very frequent semi-bluffer (if for example the turn brings a straight/flush draw) for folding there to be wrong. But you charge him for trying to push you off QQ with some BS flop raise.

[RudeboyOi]

k i was leaning towards a 3bet on the flop
i have a few questions after that though

if it gets capped do we fold or continue?

and if he just calls our turn bet

what do you like to do on the river?

[jba]

I dunno why would we want to push him off a BS raise? seems like a call down is a little better.

I mean we can all agree he's not folding a better hand right? so we either overrep our hand and get him to call down with AT or fold 55 or we make him hope we'll fold. that's if we're really intent on a showdown.

I understand what you mean by non-exploitable but I think the mixed strategy should involve calls and folds, I don't really see any point in gassing here.

I had a hand recently.. KK utg raise on what is obviously my last hand of the weekend. folds to button who 3bets I cap. flop is ace high, I bet and call his raise. turn I check/call. river check check and I win. I'm not sure how I play that hand any better? obv the positions are different but I think the dynamics are somewhat similar.

[drbk2]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] him, he doesn't have an ace. 3-bet the flop and bet the turn. If he raises you there, he'd have to be a very frequent semi-bluffer (if for example the turn brings a straight/flush draw) for folding there to be wrong. But you charge him for trying to push you off QQ with some BS flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

[DeathDonkey]

I never 3 bet here and I rarely 3 bet AK here. I like call, check/call, check/decide probably. It's weak but you did ask for least exploitable.

-DeathDonkey

[blindside]

i assume it's against an unknown...

i like either calling down or calling the flop raise and deciding which street i'm going to fold depending on the player... i think raising is pretty bad unless they'll fold 8x real quickly here...

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


I understand what you mean by non-exploitable but I think the mixed strategy should involve calls and folds, I don't really see any point in gassing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, it's a short-handed game where people will call down lightly, and at least any decent pair. So I'm not worried about him folding. I'm worried about him getting off cheaply with TT/99/77/66/98/T8. If you just call, he's checking the turn behind too often -- that's missed value as well as giving some jerk-off a free card in a pot that's already 5BBs big.

[ssmallz]

Rudeboy, post the suits here b/c it makes a difference
PJ, Why would you ever want to 3 bet here? It's a WA/WB situation. If you 3 bet you blow him off his hand, if he's got a PP you make him fold when he woulda bluffed the turn and river. If he goes for a free card on the turn, not a big deal b/c the pot is small. I'd rather just call here, call the turn, and reevaluate on the river. 3 betting is bad b/c he may just call down w/a an ace and you're never folding a better hand.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

PJ, Why would you ever want to 3 bet here? It's a WA/WB situation. If you 3 bet you blow him off his hand, if he's got a PP you make him fold when he woulda bluffed the turn and river. If he goes for a free card on the turn, not a big deal b/c the pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I answered this already, but there are a lot of spots where we're WA/WB that we still want to get aggressive. Say you have KK on a board of K44xx. You're way ahead of every holding except the one combo of 44. You're way behind 44. Are you going to play meekly because he might have quads? No, you're going to keep raising until your arm falls off. The WA/WB line of losing-the-least-and-making-the-most needs to be taken when there's a relatively even chance we're WA/WB. In this pot I've decided we're ahead a lot more often than we're behind. Maybe I'm wrong.

If I'm right, though, why should I let this stain off the hook by giving him a cheap showdown with his PP? Too often I call and check the turn only to see him check behind (and the pot isn't that small, it's 5BBs even if you smoothcall the flop raise). And like I said, I have no idea why we expect him to fold a pair. When I take this line I get called down by TT. I turn over my hand and he says, "See, I *knew* you didn't have an ace" and grumbles.